Forum - View topicINTEREST: Mamoru Oshii: Today's Anime Is Driven by Otaku, Merchandise
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
|
|||||
|
I would tend to agree with dtm42.
Even if we disagree with his conclusions, I assume that there is some sort of objective criteria to determine what entertainment is better. Otherwise there truly is no point in debating because it is just a matter of personal opinion. |
||||||
|
||||||
Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
|
|||||
If there were some objective criteria for measuring the "quality" of entertainment then you should not have to assume that they exist. There has been so much discussion on the subject that somebody would certainly have used them to prove his point, if there were such things.
Exactly. There is no point to it. The debate continues because some people ignore the lack of objective standards and insist that their opinions are facts. They honestly believe that they know what is "good" and what is "bad." Arguments arte futile because they know "The Truth." |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
|
|||||
|
What about the founders of New Criticism? They determined a great deal of Criteria. More than I could probably type in a forum post without turning it into a book.
I trust CS Lewis, Allan Tate and others to have determined the principles behind good literature. They have analyzed and criticized many works in their day. Our own resident Zac Bertschy would agree that there are objective standards to determine artistic merit. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
|
|||||
|
dtm42 mentioned quality writing is an objective indicator of quality, yet quality writing is merely a subjective evaluation. Writing that is proclaimed to be higher in quality is simply a gathering of centuries of popular opinion from experts. In today’s cultural climate, what has happened is that those expert’s beliefs on what constitutes good writing have been granted a high level of respectability by popular opinion, subsequently defining what the majority of people consider good writing. Yet as writing has evolved over time, people have always come up with different criteria for evaluating someone’s work. At certain points in history, different forms of writing have been considered by experts to be of higher quality than others. For example, up until the 1700’s, a lot of experts in the field of English literature considered anything written in prose to be barbarous, yet today experts lavishly praise an amalgamation of prose.
It is a very common mistake in our current epoch to equate the product of centuries of popular opinion by experts as objective facts. We often forget that any current evaluation of art is merely the product of our own exposure to certain popular codes that have been propagated throughout human history. (Code: a chain or sequence of smaller units of meaning that are used together to convey a larger meaning) It is a mistake to think that quality writing has any facts to back it up. What the current literary community believes to constitute quality writing is merely the aggregate and continuation of centuries of what literary experts have stated is quality writing, and even though popular opinion might support their criteria, in the end it is still just an opinion. |
||||||
|
||||||
Parse Error
 Posts: 592 |
|
|||||
Artistic or literary merit don't necessarily make something entertaining to all people at all times. Plan 9 from Outer Space can be amusing simply because it is so hilariously bad on every level. When it comes to anime, certain viewers would be able to enjoy a good story and message even if the art and animation were lacking, whereas those strongly inclined toward the visual arts might be more willing to overlook poor writing in something aesthetically interesting. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Anymouse
Posts: 685 |
|
|||||
|
Good point. In the same way many novels such as Moby Dick are considered great writing today but were not easy reading for me.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||
|
Parse Error: The phrase "so bad it's good" does not mean that something is good, it means that something is bad but yet some people find unintentional humour in how bad it is. I wouldn't call Musashi Gundou Daitokuji (or whatever it's called) good, although I did find clips of it to be side-splittingly funny. But just because it made me laugh doesn't mean it is good writing, especially when I'm laughing at it rather than with it.
Please note that changing attitudes to writing fashions throughout the centuries has no bearing on whether one Anime is better than another. Also, if I were to write a play using the same techniques and similar dialogue as Shakespeare I'd be looked at funny; times have changed, we longer put the letter 'e' on the end of many words, and so and so forth. And yet Shakespeare is still regarded as a master playwright and an expert in storytelling. Okay, so Romeo and Juliet and Othello both had really dumb endings. He's still deserving of his reputation. Now, of course writing quality is not subjective. I dared willag to tell me that Violence Jack is as good as Black Lagoon. Because if there is no objectivity in quality, then the unavoidable conclusion is that nothing is better or worse than anything else. It may make for an edgy philosophical view but it has no place in the real world. Restaurants, bank services, movies, television series, musical performances, roofers; each and every one of them has objective standards. Next time a tradesman does a bad job and you go through several days of hell trying to dry out your house or attempting to rescue what's left of your petunias, come tell me that it is only your opinion and that the tradesman's opinion is equally valid. I'd love to hear you say it. In fact, send me a Private Message so I don't miss it. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6528 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
|
|||||
|
And the objective measure of an anime's worth is how much profit it makes for its producers. Pretty much anything else is subjective.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||
Nonsense. Just nonsense. It is that sort of thinking which got Anime into such a hole in the first place. Lots of awfully-written shows which cater for Otaku making the mega-bucks while the actual good stuff is left behind and making losses. "As long as it sells" has led to far too many abominations, some of which are known as 'checklist shows'. Heard of them? |
||||||
|
||||||
Bonham
 Posts: 419 Location: NYC |
|
|||||
|
Just want to say that, as already has been pointed out, anime has almost always been driven otaku and merchandise, so Oshii seems to be engaging in a bit of unneeded nostalgia.
Still, one trend that I personally see is that anime is becoming far more insular. For decades anime has seen inspiration from different mediums and genres, which I think culminated in a diverse range of works for televised anime series from the mid-90s to, oh, 2008 or so. The past few years has been a reaction to the economy, so it makes since that production have become a bit more conservative. But I've also noticed that recent anime seems to be influenced and driven almost solely by anime tropes (be they from anime or anime-like mediums, such as the kind of light novels that are adapted). The creators take influence by previous anime creators, rather than being influenced by other arts as well, which doesn't breed a very diverse and creative atmosphere. Of course, interesting works are still produced, but they frequently seem to be different in regards to genre, or else merely do well what has been done before.
Well, those examples are actually functional. You can measure their effects on tangible, physical evidence at hand. Art is not intrinsically functional/useful; it can have real-world meaning and impact, but that's separate from its intended purpose. This isn't to suggest that criticism should not exist, and that we shouldn't have dialogues about what we think of a series/film/book/whatever. Passively consuming things usually means just reaffirming our own views (Michael Bay's movies unabashedly love and glorify military might, and I would guess that many of his fans/viewers love and glorify it, too). Figuring out how and why we respond to things is always useful for anything (art, family, politics, social settings, et cetera). And, well, a discussion where we just talk about "liking" or "disliking" something isn't productive, and particularly in a forum, pointless. Critical thought and high standards are good! But having just generally-defined (and not absolute and universally-agreed upon) criteria implies that objective standards cannot be done. Art is interesting because it involves subjective experience, and explaining why we feel the way we do about a story or song is the greatest part of that. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6528 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
|
|||||
|
dtm42, there's nothing wrong with checklist shows per se. Just as there's nothing wrong with mass produced plain coffee mugs. While they make money for their producers, they'll be made.
There are two issues being discussed here. I think they need to be looked at separately. 1. The market determines the content. Anime is made by businesses. It must make money or we won't get any more of our obsession. This is where Mamoru Oshii is fundamentally deluded. He seems to be arguing that the market should buy whatever his creative genius puts in front of it. As much as I like his films, that's crap. In the 80s and 90s he was in touch with his audience. Since then, the audience has changed. If he wants to continue employment in the industry he has to change with it. If he has talent, and he has, he should be able to manage it. 2. The viewer determines the quality I have never in my life seen a universally accepted set of criteria that can be used to judge categorically whether a film or book or TV show is good. I would be grateful if someone could provide me with one. (Well, not really - I'm being sarcastic.  ) A religious fundamentalist would have a very different set of criteria from me when judging, say, Kite (to mention something that has been discussed recently at length in these forums). Whose judgements are correct? I don't know. I just wouldn't put much value on the fundamentalist's criticism. Many would.
You mention good writing, dtm42, but how do we agree what good writing is? You think Black Lagoon is well written. I don't. This is what I have written in "My Anime":
You probably disagree about Black Lagoon and that's fine. Perhaps your take on the relative importance of bravado, wit, violence, stuntwork, dramatic conflict, caricatures and characterisation are different from mine. In fact, I'm sure they are. I suspect we couldn't agree even where the boundaries between some of these lie. Whose take is correct? Yours or mine? I don't know. I'm also sure that each of our value systems in these areas are different from anybody else's. That's why any judgement must ultimately be subjective. What I hope from you and others are informed and interesting commentaries that improve my appreciation of anime and help me see things in new ways. (And you are worth reading for those reasons, by the way). |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Parse Error
Posts: 592 |
|
|||||
This is a bit confusing, because what you're explaining to me isn't any different from what I already said.
I certainly wouldn't say everything else is subjective, but when something is made with the intention of making money, and it makes a lot of money, it was well-made for its purpose. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||
|
Don't have much time, so please excuse the very brief replies.
First of all, I was talking about story-telling, not art. Actual objective storytelling, not subjective art. I believe that art is extremely overrated and I hate abstract art, although I do like architecture, which can be considered art. But that's my subjective opinion. But enough about art, it ain't the point. Those examples were no more functional than Anime examples. Writing can't be measured as easily as a broken roof tile, but that doesn't mean it can't be measured at all. I think that's all I need to say on that one.
I don't either. I know, weird huh? Yes, look back and you'll see that I didn't say Black Lagoon was good, just that it was better written than Violence Jack. Well, I didn't actually say it but I implied it so yeah. I don't have time to properly respond to the two issues you address, but I can say a bit. The market nowadays - and by that I mean mainstream Otaku (now there's an oxymoron) - wants drivel, not something to make them think. Yes, we still get plenty of shows that are thoughtful and interesting and well-written, I'm not one of those sad people who believe that no modern Anime is any good and therefore want to hide in nostalgia watching 80s OVAs. But by and large those types of series aren't what pays the bills; the crap and mediocre shows do. So I agree with you that the market does determine content. That's obvious. Viewers can and do determine subjective quality which changes with fads and cultural norms and whatnot. This is not the same quality as objective quality. So I both agree and disagree with you on this one. The market wants drivel, the market gets drivel, but that doesn't mean that drivel is good. Good for business maybe, but not actually good. A badly-written show doesn't become a well-written show just because it sells well, except to say it did its job. There's no higher merit involved in such a transaction, only money and a further piece of soul that was sold off.
I realise that. But what I wasn't sure of at the time was if you were saying that just because Plan 9 from Outer Space was funny that means it has some merit. Now I know. ^ And that paragraph people is an example of weak writing on my part, which is further proof that there are objective truths in writing. Even when I fail I win; choice. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Bonham
Posts: 419 Location: NYC |
|
|||||
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Touma
Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
|
|||||
I had thought about asking that same question, but I decided not to because I thought that it would just be an exercise in futility. But I am glad that you asked. 
I cannot speak for anybody else, but personally I would be satisfied with just a pointer to a web site or book that explains the process of objectively measuring any of those things. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group