Forum - View topicNGE Ending and The End of Evangelion ---- Extreme Spoilers
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BlooDrAgOn
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I just finished it and this series was simply remarkable. The characters were lovable, the action was amazing, and the plotline was fantastic. But confusing as well.
In the last two episodes, I wasn't really sure what was going on. I understood that they were in the spoiler[Human Instrumentallity Project], but how exactly did they get in there? In the end, spoiler[Shinji started accepting himself, and you see some glass cracking which I interpreted that he was escaping Instrumentallity.] But what exactly happened? I thought he'd spoiler[escape back into the real world, but in the end he was just surrounded by all the characters in the anime (and they were congratulating him).] That really creeped me out. I would have given NGE a masterpiece, but it felt as if all the action was leading up to something, and I was waiting untill the end to see what it was, and they give me this bull. I hated the ending; pretty horrible. (also I never saw the scene where Kaji died. What episode was that? I have to go back) End of Evangelion, on the other hand, was possibly the greatest ending I've seen. Some things I didn't understand, like spoiler[who exactly was Rei, and why were there like 100 of her. I interpreted it as that Commander Ikari removed Lilith's soul and put it in a clone of Yui. Also, in episode 24 of the series, Rei gives Kaoru a "look" in which she looks protective. I took this as that Lilith was against the Third Impact, and wanted to protect her creation, the Lilim (humanity).] In End of Eva, there were a few points that made this movie the greatest classic evern IMO. The "adult kiss" part, the inaudible line, and "kimochi warui." I've got to say, Misato is the greatest female character in an anime and her spoiler[death scene was amazing. I cried...]. In general, I'll just list what was massively confusing for me - spoiler[ Who is Rei? Is Yui's soul inside Unit 01? Is Asuka's mom's soul inside 02? What was going on in episode 26? What happened to Kaji? What was the truth behind the Second Impact? What was the Black Moon? What was the Spear of Longinus? Why is Shinji in the Tree of Life? and what is the Tree of Life? What is so important of Shinji being inside the Tree of Life? How did Eva Unit 01 become a god? What is the most interpreted meaning of "kimochi warui"? Why does Shinji strangle Asuka after they emerge from LCL?Is he simply finishing what he did during Imstrumentality?] Last but not least, spoiler[What are Rei and Kaoru talking about when they are talking to Shinji?] That's what confused me the most. I replayed it about 5 times, and didn't understand a bit of it. Thanks much if you can help me out, and don't Wiki me anything because it didn't help. Maybe you can say your feelings about this anime. |
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varmintx
 Posts: 1207 Location: Covington, KY |
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All your anime discussion threads here!
Read these. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18230 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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NGE was deliberately made to be open to interpretation, and it won't mean the same thing to everyone. That's part of the reason why discussion threads for it can get so lively. (Well, that and it's one of those love-it-or-hate-it anime. It tends to provoke strong reactions both ways.) That being said, I've found the Evangelion Otaku Page to be of great help on making sense of it. Particularly check out the FAQ and Program Book sections. To answer some of your questons: spoiler[ *You're right about Rei. She is a physical clone of Yui which holds Lilith's soul. That she is essentially an empty vessel is a necessary component of the Human Instrumentality Project (hereafter HIP). *Yes, Yui's soul is in Unit 01 and Asuka's mother's soul is in Unit 02. *Episode 26 shows the internal psychological aspect of the HIP in action, so basically that's all in Shinji's mind. Gainax skipped showing the physical side of the whole process, which is what you see in EoE. *Kaji is dead, killed for his poking his nose in things too much. It's implied that Misato may have killed him herself, but that's left to speculation. *Second Impact happened because the Katsuragi Resarch Team awakened Adam. *The Lance of Longinus, according to legend, pierced the side of Jesus while he lay on the cross, so it's basically a holy artifact. I believe it has additional meaning within the context of the series, but you'd have to look that up. *To learn more about the Tree of Life, look up "Kabbalah." It's part of a Jewish mystical tradition. *The strangling thing is probably more open to interpretation than anything else in the series. One of the most common theories I've heard is that it was Shinji's way of proving that he was back in the real world.] And about the last two episodes: I recommend going back and rewatching them. I didn't fully appreciate them myself until I had seen them through a second time. (Most people tend to hate them at first because it's utterly different than what they were expecting, but if you strip that context away then everything that happens there is not only completely consistent with the rest of the series but appropriate, too. After all, one of the most prominent underlying themes of the whole series is learning to accept and like one's self, which is a major issue for all of the key characters in the story). Really, checking various discussion threads and Websites about NGE will only increase your appreciation for the series further. That's one of the reasons why it's still a mammoth property despite the fact that its last new content (in anime form, anyway) was released ten years ago. |
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BlooDrAgOn
Posts: 156 |
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Thanks for clearing it up a bit, and thanks for that site. My main question now is when did Kaji die? What episode? Or was it in EoE? I seem to have missed it completely.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18230 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I think it was episode 21. It was the one where spoiler[Fuyutski was kidnapped and questioned by Seele and flashed back to his early encounters with Gendo and Yui. Near the end of the episode Kaji is waiting by a big fan, and someone comes up to him and he says, "oh, I was expecting you" or something like that. That's the point where he gets killed, but off-camera. The last scene in the ep, IIRC, was Misato crying by the phone after playing the message he left on her answering machine.]
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JasonSolaris
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This also puzzled me while watching EoE the first time. spoiler[ I can somewhat agree that Shinji snapped when she rejected him/didn't want to help him when he started to strangle Asuka before the HIP. Though, I would wonder if there was any other way to get a reaction from her rather than trying to wring her neck? Like trying to hit or slap her. But I guess his head was pretty screwed up at the time.. The interpretation that Shinji was trying to figure out reality based on Asuka reaction.. At the end, Asuke seemed pretty lifeless until Shinji started to strangle her again and stopped when brushed her hands agaist his face.] |
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the Rancorous
 Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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Bloodragon, if you haven't already, you should watch EoE with the commentary, that helped myself out with understanding certain things better. For instance, the Spear of Longinus is indeed the spear that stuck Christ in the side (according to myth anyways), but the commentary points out that the other side to that is that (and also according to myth) since it has the blood of Christ on it, it can thus destroy any enemy no matter what. That's why spoiler[it was the last resort against the angel in ep 22 and worked when all other meens failed; and that's also why it tore through Asuka's AT field with little resistance]
But yeah, the commentary helped me out a bit. About the final scene, spoiler[when Shinji strangles Asuka on the shore,] heh, that's something that there is absolutely no single answer for (unless of course, the director comes out with why he chose to do that). My own theory is spoiler[during the HIP, when Asuka, Misato, and Rei were all talking, their souls and consciousness were in there with Shinji, so they really were saying what they did and it wasn't just Shinji imagining it. And so, when Shinji woke up and Asuka was next to him, he saw the person who stomped on his last desperate peice of hope. However, when Asuka carressed his face, plus the title of that last bit, "I Need You," it was her way of expressing just that; they need eachother.] Oh, and I feel compelled to mention one more bit, since it struck me as being so amazing; spoiler[When Shinji looks out onto the sea and sees the image of Rei in her school uniform, I immediately remembered the first episode when the same thing happens, back when it all began.] Man, I agree that this was one of the most spectacular endings I've ever seen. |
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BlooDrAgOn
Posts: 156 |
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As much as I'd like to agree with you that the reason why Asuka carresed Shinji is because she needed him, I don't think that's the case. I really liked Asuka a lot; one of the most well made characters, but throughout the anime, she was a bitch to Shinji. I really wanted them to be together, but you know, Anno did the exact opposite by putting her through that serious mental anguish and jealousy towards Shinji; saying that he was invincible and that she was useless and what-not. Although it was an amazing ending, I seriously hate Anno for making EoE end that way. It's impossible for me to predict what happens next. I thought "Wow. This is a perfect, 'Adam and Eve' thing. Life will go on." But after thinking about it, that couldn't happen. I mean, it's possible, but I don't think Asuka is someone that would change drastically. After all, she basically told off Shinji by saying "you disgust me" in the end. Although there are various translations for this like - "Disgusting," and, "I feel sick," they all have the same feeling to it.
On Shinji's side of the story, I think it was more of a "I'm here! Accept that I'm here." Like it was said before, he was proving his existance and nobody can deny that, yet Asuka did anyway. I guess you're right though, Rancorous, he couldn't do anything else but try to kill the person who denied his existance. I think that touch of the face reminded him of the touch that his mom gave him moments before, and he realized how similar the two were. How it was like killing his mom, one of the two women he loved, and he broke down. Reading the Wiki on End of Eva just made me realize something though. Before and for a short while after Shinji started strangling Asuka, she looked lifeless. Then she finally looks at him and touches his face almost to say, "I know you're here, so please..." So maybe you're right Rancorous. God I don't know where this is going -_- Last edited by BlooDrAgOn on Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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spoiler[The results of the television series and the movie were the same, though the latter went a step further and showed the state of the world as one that would have to recover and be rebuilt.]
It's not an ending in the traditional sense, as it pretty much leaves the plot for dead, but in terms of what Anno was trying to say and the resolution for its themes, its pretty solid in what it does. Plus, the cinematic editting used in the final two episodes are tight and certainly wasn't thrown together like many would have you think.
spoiler[Episode twenty-one.] As for your general questions, Key got most of them right in my mind except...
spoiler[Kaji was shot by an unnamed third party.]
Can't say what the most popular interpretation is, but spoiler["kimochi warui" harkens back to the hospital scene. Visually it is connected because when Shinji was pleading for help from a drugged Asuka in that room, his tears fell on her. In Instrumentality these memories and emotions were exposed and shared with all, and it is apparenty that Asuka learned about the incident in question with her comments to him by stating that she'll watch him do it again. Also, in an interview with her Japanese voice actress, Yoko Miyamura, she states that the line was conceived when Anno asked her what she would think of someone if they came into your room while your asleep, and instead of raping you, masturbated to you and left. Her response was "kimochi warui," and so the line came to pass.]
In a way, I would guess so. spoiler[He had felt betrayed by her continuingly denying her feelings even when he learned of them via Instrumentality, in addition to his frustration of being denied help, so he metaphorically and physically took his anger out on her.]
spoiler[Rei has a portion to assure Shinji that others will return, and then her and Kaworu pretty much talk about the hope in Evangelion itself -- that people will one day come to love themselves and each other.] I'll detail more on that in your later comments regarding Shinji and Asuka's relationship.
The only things that I find at fault there are the guys' opinions on the concurreny between the two endings, or his case his opinion of the lack of concurreny, and his interpretation of spoiler[as to why Shinji strangled Asuka.] He should stick to the canon itself and not seek out other sources like that. To answer some of your questons:
Anno himself said that it was a character that did not appear in the show, let alone one of the main cast members. Plus, her reaction after the event, as well as her conditions during it don't match up.
Definitely have to agree here. While the television ending is weak when taken only as itself, when you consider it in conjunction with the EoE ending its really quite amazing.
Ugh, please, don't listen to the commentary provided on the Manga Ent. release. It's amusing in a sickly way and for the most part only serves to misguide the viewer(s).
Actually, I'd say that the Rancorous is spot-on with his interpretation of the scene.
She was in constant deniel of her feelings towards others in general and pushed them away. spoiler[The "director's cut" of episode 22' shows this inexplicicably well. She didn't want to become close to anyone because she didn't want to be betrayed again.]
Take what Asuka says with a grain of salt. It is made painstakingly clear that a lot of what she says is through the egotistical persona she has established for herself.
I felt the exact opposite. I felt Anno ended it on the perfect note with spoiler[there being hope at the end for humanity to return in spite of the barren landscape, as well as there being hope for Shinji and Asuka to gradually come to understand and accept not only themselves but each other.]
The point is a dramatic change that shippers would probably want. spoiler[Breaking done one other's "barriers" bit by bit, eventually coming to feel compassion for themselves and each other, etc. It is something to come with time and while they're too young to really "experience love" or whatever you want to refer to it as, they do have the capabilities of learning to do so.] Their relationship puts the entire narrative into focus, and when I realized that everything fit together. Why Shinji spoiler[came to care for Asuka the most ahead of Rei and Misato, why Anno forced the two to go through such a tragic relationship up until the end of the story, why they continually seek out others, etc.]
Like I mentioned earlier, spoiler[the final line goes back to the hospital scene with Shinji masturbating to a half-nude, drugged Asuka. Every point of her behavior regarding him shows that she does care for him.]
Asuka "didn't deny him his existance," just as Shinji wasn't trying to prove his existance. spoiler[It's a carry-over from the revisited coffee pot scene in Instrumentality, with Asuka showing her disdain at Shinji only having the courage to use her as a sex object and not become intimate with her. Her libido is as eager as Misato's, I reckon.]
Partly, though I'd say that it was also spoiler[an emotional outburst due to the fact that he finally received a compassionate gesture from the one he wanted it from the most. His previous two attempts, the hospital scene and the coffee pot scene in Instrumentality, proved disasterous, while this one, after all that has happened, she finally responded.] |
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BlooDrAgOn
Posts: 156 |
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After all this, I've got a conclusion!!!
Time to watch EoE again. A lot of it with the Instrumentality part, I didn't understand. Rather than just read what you have to say, I'll rewatch it, and then come back to see if I can understand it. I'm definetly missing something. I just watched the episode 22 director's cut.....in Spanish. Thank god I'm an A+ student in Spanish, but a lot of it was too confusing. If there's anyway to watch it in English without buying the DVD, just let me know. But don't send me a link or anything, I'll just do some surfing on t3h Int3rw3b. And also, about the director's cut of episode 22, I was told there was a flashback where Asuka actually wasn't gargling water or mouthwash from that scene where she and Shinji kissed. Is it that part where she raises her head out of the sink? If so, how can someone actually conclude that she didn't gargle. Edit: Ok then. During Instrumentality, when Shinji, Asuka, Rei, and Misato are all on that train, Asuka says, "If I can't have all of you, then I don't want you at all." This means that Asuka wants Shinji, but what is that part that she can't have? Also I realized, during Instrumentality, when Shinji begins to choke Asuka, all of a sudden she gets this really shocked look on her face, and her eyes become really wide. Looks as if she didn't expect that coming. I also realized that maybe the reason that Asuka sort of "fell" for Shinji at the end, even after all those words of hatred, is because even though rejection hurt him, he had the will to live. Both Shinji and Asuka realize that it is stupid to avoid interacting each other because they both don't want to feel the pain of rejection again (Asuka by her mother, Shinji by his father). Also I saw the irony of that last scene. Instead of Master Bateing (my Karatee Teacher aka Bateing Sensei) to the nearly lifeless body of Asuka, like he did during the exact start of the movie, he tried to kill her, and it's at the exact end of the movie. Being sexually attracted and trying to kill someone are sort of exact opposites right? |
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b214
 Posts: 142 Location: Connecticut |
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Not really, you are killing kittens when masterbating. I know from experience  .
As some of you might know from other eva threads, I am in love with this series and movie. I watched it many times and still find it interesting to read threads like these. By-far this has to be the most detailed one I ever saw, and I don't know what to say. I just never thought to look into the reasoning behind all of these events as I was in complete aw of the main plot of the movie/series. spoiler[I thought him masturbating was just him getting off on an unconscouce(totally spelt wrong) naked girl (who couldn't resist  ). ] and that shinji [spoiler]strangling her just showed his frustration of her rejection of him./spoiler]
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