Forum - View topicNEWS: Manga Artist Megumi Igarashi Appears in Court on Obscenity Charges
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
Author | Message | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
joshjoshlol
Posts: 94 |
|
|||||
I was thinking the same thing. We have the CBLDF and a deeply progressive entertainment industry that can at times challenge outdated notions of societal norms (for example, Disney being more inclusive to homosexuality despite sporadic uproar that it may spark amongst certain segments of the population), but I wonder if there's a Japanese analogue to any of this? When you think of Japanese society, the unwavering dedication to not being a standing nail comes to mind first and foremost, which doesn't seem conducive to great strides of social progression. There just doesn't appear to be a lot of courage arising from Japan that we're seeing here. Of course, it may be because only a select few news items are translated and presented to us for discussion, and reports of prominent people standing up for Megumi may be out there but beyond our ability to read and form an opinion around. |
||||||
Guile
Posts: 595 |
|
|||||
I find it extremely interesting that you would claim the American entertainment is more "progressive" than Japan's. What progress are we talking about specifically? It's true I see a lot of complaining on the internet about how we need more female or representation in things like American video games and cartoons, but despite all this discussion nothing usually comes out of it. In Japan, there are hundreds of females in the manga, anime, and video game industry that dwarf what is happening in America. Japan may not have figureheads on YouTube or appearing on talk shows advocating for it, but perhaps that's because it already exists in Japan. For all the spokespeople for diversity and progress you see, very little actually happens. The question should then be would you rather have progress groups calling for more diversity in video games, comics, and cartoons, or would you rather have no one talking about it because it's already been achieved in Japan. Though overall, I find the comparison of social progress to vagina boats a bit of a false equivalency. Obscenity laws have nothing to do with social progress like homosexual representation. |
||||||
walw6pK4Alo
Posts: 9322 |
|
|||||
Yeah, Japan's been ahead of the curve on strong female leads and female representation among creators since the 60s. Maybe not so much on the latter point in terms of anime production until recently, but definitely in manga. The obscenity law is just a dumb holdover from 1907 that mattered to the Empire of Japan and should be forgotten today but yet they keep it well enforced for absolutely no reason despite knowing that JAVs and ecchi material are such a powerful business.
|
||||||
DTJB
Posts: 671 Location: Dubuque, IA |
|
|||||
Still wondering how I can buy one of those little figures.
|
||||||
The_way67
Posts: 118 |
|
|||||
Anyone have a link to the vagina art? ANN is always awful with never putting links in with their news stories.
|
||||||
enurtsol
Posts: 14767 |
|
|||||
Can find link here:
|
||||||
MaxSouth
Posts: 1363 |
|
|||||
It will take sometime to get used to, but after a while, you will just stop caring. You have to remember that until 20th century, not only women, but also men were forbidden to expose their chests/skin, they had to wear long-sleeved swimming sets/underwear that covered body from neck to feet. People were outraged even at thought that men (let alone women) could ever expose their naked skin to other people.
-- they asked. Also, T-shirt people now wear everywhere was shameful underwear until 1940s. The society has changed, and no one outraged any more. The same would happen with nudists. Besides, it is not forced, no one would make anyone be naked. Most people will continue to be covered anyway (because it is convenient, warmer and/or beautiful). Those who are more attractive, will be free to showcase that beauty. Of course, there will be always some low number of people who are not beautiful at all, but they still will be naked -- either not understanding how ungraceful they look, or on purpose. But it is a free society, they should be allowed to do that. We do not ban people with not beautiful faces, huge weight or bad taste for clothes, right? Nudity is no different. If you do not like how someone looks, look away. Problem solved. Otherwise, why not force everyone to wear a burka? "You know, not everyone is beautiful! Are you sure you want to see those ugly faces?!"
Yes, but this only relates to relatively recent switch to (kind of) monogamous relations. Before that, the micro society was always tribal, without separate personal/private ownership of homes, land and/or resources. Women had sex with many men, and men had sex with many women, children were cared by a community/tribe as whole. Even until this day, many tribes in Africa, South America, Australia and Oceania live in a communal way. Adults and children in some of those tribes regularly see how people get conceived (oh shocker!), how they are born, how they die. It happens right now, in our time, in 2015. All of it is perfectly natural, children are not traumatized about any of that (why would they be?), they are as healthy mentally as anyone else in those tribes was for tens of thousand of years. You will have no rational argument to explain to those people that they have to think that is wrong, that they have to "protect" each other and children from seeing how real life goes. More importantly, the reasons you describe about why in many societies the nudity has become obscene are historical. They make no logical sense now other than being conservative tradition. Last edited by MaxSouth on Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
joshjoshlol
Posts: 94 |
|
|||||
...Except I didn't. Nowhere in my post did I compare directly the different entertainment industries. I asked the question, "I wonder if there's a Japanese analogue to any of this?," which should be taken at its face value as a question asking exactly that. There was no statement saying one or the other was more progressive. There was innuendo that this particular case is showing a lack of progression nationwide in regard to interpretations of obscenity, but that's about it. Nothing about western entertainment versus eastern entertainment. At all. Nowhere.
It's ignorant to say that obscenity laws have nothing to do with social progression. Obscenity laws are typically specifically made to stifle the arts and expression, which runs counter to a progressive and permissive societal outlook. This japanese law is affecting an artist's ability to express herself. Thus it falls into the "socially non-progressive" column. |
||||||
sunflower
Posts: 1080 |
|
|||||
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in ages on ANN. As if rape is more difficult when a woman or man wears underwear. The idea of obscenity of genitals isn't based upon exposure to elements or failthfulness. It's a Western cultural construct based upon the the Old Testament, and represents Adam and Eve's shame in the garden of Eden. It's the Original Sin. And all of this crap stems from those religions who use the early books of the Bible like Genesis, sticking their noses into other cultures while screwing up the heads of everyone in their own by insisting our natural bodies are somehow inherently evil. |
||||||
_Cyphon_
Posts: 996 |
|
|||||
Dude, calm down. If that is what you believe in, then you are free to believe that. Certainly religion plays an aspect in the belief of obscenity of genitals. You cannot be serious when you said there is no difference in difficulty of rape with or without clothes. I acknowledge that it is not significantly more difficult, but to say they do not make a difference, I don't think so. If the rapist were trying to not be caught, then it would indeed not be too different since the rapist would first drug or knock out the victim and carry out the rape in a deserted place. Clothes would not matter in this case. However, if the rapist did not drug or knock out the victim, it would get complicated. I'm not going to go on a long rant about how easy it would be to rape someone who is naked, my point is that if a woman were naked, all the rapist would need to do is push her over, open her legs, insert, and done. Whereas with clothes, he is not given the option to do this in one fluid sequence, he would struggle with taking the victim's clothes off. If you guys have any idea how tight the jeans girls wear these days are, you can guess that they are not made to be torn off or taken off lightning fast. In fact, if the female were struggling and fighting back, it would be very hard for the rapist to do anything. Again, this is under the assumption the rapist did not drug her nor is he carrying something like a gun. |
||||||
residentgrigo
Posts: 2424 Location: Germany |
|
|||||
Manga have been great at female leads since the 1960s and still are overall. Just look at the 60+ volumes manga Azumi.
But modern anime this i overall can´t see. Tomino was forbidden multiple times to have a female Gundma pilot lead for example and while animes were good with female characters in the second half of the 90s till a few years ago i find it that we have regressed there in the last few years. Ok 2014 had good female leads(Psycho Pass 2) that were not whored out there i will bite. Most female characters nowadays are object to market out and not be capable in sense of story or equal strength compared to the males leads. Just look at the recent One Piece stuff. Or "dvd specials"''. The women are now fan service only and only get to fight other women in most battle manga/anime. Just look at this years Gangst. Great male leads. Check. The Female lead is a prostitute who is naked a lot. Check. Shikata ga nai is the root of all of japans problems. American (non independent of course) comics have failed at female characters till the 90s where things changed big time thanks to the women in refrigerators blog and we are now getting big budget female superhero movies/tv shows in the coming future. Finally. |
||||||
Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
|
|||||
Ange in Cross Ange is a fabulous female lead. Not only for her body, she has an attitude and she kicks ass. Ok most people aren't watching Cross Ange, but little Ange is as badass a lead character as you can have.
|
||||||
gloverrandal
Posts: 406 Location: Oita |
|
|||||
Tomino was probably restricted to have a female lead because Gundam is a franchise aimed at young boys and it'd be more marketable to have a male lead boys can relate to to be the star so they can sell them more Gunpla. I don't see much of an issue with that thinking, though. Shoujo anime is like this as well which is why you probably won't see a male lead in Pretty Cure anytime soon. I never liked the idea a female is a bad character simply because she is attractive or there is fanservice of her, though. It comes off like slut shaming a woman for showing off her body. Nami is the type of woman who is confident and has no problem sporting a bikini top in a tropical setting. These kinds of characters might be considered problematic if they exist in American media, but in Japan characters like Nami, Fujoko, and Lum are considered iconic female characters by both men and women alike. Taking away a female character's appeal simply because of her wardrobe is something done by the viewer, not the character or show. Perhaps it's just a cultural difference of acceptance. People on ANN were very critical of Cross Ange when it premiered, but in Japan it has a huge female following and they consider Ange a great character. Japan seems to be less likely reduce a female character to nothing more than what outfit she wears like western viewers do. |
||||||
Stuart Smith
Posts: 1298 |
|
|||||
Perhaps the most interesting thing is the two most popular anime in Japan, which have been going on for a long time, are Sazae-san and Chibi Maruko-chan. Both these series star female leads. Meanwhile in the west a female lead is called a disaster, and after Korra's terrible ratings and performance, perhaps it's not just network's making excuses, but an actual problem in western culture.
You say "most females" and then list a shounen and a seinen series aimed at men as your examples. Why not Pretty Cure? Jewelpet? Aikatsu? Even Sailor Moon Crystal? Why not all the anime and manga actually aimed at women rather than two random ones aimed at men? One Piece seems pretty popular with women in Japan, though. They seem to find the female characters relatable and fun.
No offense, but you're celebrating one single movie that won't come out until 2018 and you don't even know if it'll be good or not. That comes off more like people desperation for something different that they'll take anything rather than a true achievement. It's also not even going to be animated, but live-action, which is just another strike against comics and cartoons in the west. How long until the movie becomes designed by committee, I wonder? It happened when Disney announced Princess and the Frog would feature a black princess, and suddenly everyone had an opinion on how the right way to do that was, and the movie we got was a forgettable flop because of it. Perhaps that's why western media is not so good with representation compared to Japan. They're too afraid to step on anyone's toes so they try to please everyone and end up pleasing no one. Japan just makes character male, female, gay, straight, transgendered, etc and simply let's the public decide which ones will become memorable or popular rather than try to carefully mold and market them to make a statement. Some westerners might complain about a female getting fanservice, while others love her, and women in Japan go nuts for her. Where as if you listened to the vocal minority of detractors, that character never would have gotten made. It's the only explanation I can think of. -Stuart Smith |
||||||
residentgrigo
Posts: 2424 Location: Germany |
|
|||||
I deliberately chose anime/manga aimed at the "male" market because we can´t have good female characters for the female market only and shojo smut manga´s with weak famale protagonists are a big thing on the market too.
First of all Bleach is at like at 50% female readership and the manga "Orange" by Takano Ichigo moved from a shojo to a seinen publication with zero content changes. Thus we learn that demographics are meaningless because K-ON is seinen and Madoka is too but X is shojo. Is Korra "shonen" ? I don´t know. My reading is 40% shojo/josei anyway. Secondly i never had or will have a problem with nudity(you all have read what i posted in this thread about censorship before right ?)of all genders and thus chose Azimu as a representative lead. She is a ronin who is naked in about 1/5 of her scenes and i gave the manga a 9/10. You can have sex, nudity and even rape in your work without turning characters into objects. Or maybe look at my avatar. Azumi is like he opposite of Ange but that is a topic for another thread. Berserk(strong female readership too) has female characters who can and have beaten/destroyed the male lead in combat before. Of such things i want more to see. Btw. LoGH is a bit weak the female character department but is still my favorite anime becasue i watch/read quality not correctness. Have you ever gone to a horror convention. They have like 40% female attendance and more men then women probably watch our favourite pony show by now i presume. Thirdly actually homosexual(the shows are mostly set in japan after all) characters like in Tokyo Godfathers are a rarety in anime and sadly to a lesser degreed even in manga. Read the award winning Honey & Honey by Takeuchi Sachikoto learn more about living the reality of a gay person in japan. Just look here to see how problematic the "ai" genres realy are for a lot and me in their portrayal of homosexuality:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi#Criticism Kevin Keller this is not. I do like A Cruel God Reigns a lot btw but the Paradise Kiss anime had to downplay the bi-sexual aspect of the male lead so let´s not forget that. Realistic portrail of the topic is still miles away in a country that does not recognize(but does not persecute) gay marriage. The word Fujoshi "rotten girl" needs to go away. This is a topic american comic(german even longer) have excelled at for the last 15-20 years and don´t forget the Ms. Marvel movie or the Supergirl tv show or I Zombie or... Things are now finally happening but let´s forget Catwoman or Elektra or Tank Girl or other bad female leading comic movie that apparently never existed. Regarding Gundam google Turn A Gundam to learn more. Let´s keep on topic a bit and just hope that Igaarshi and go don´t go to jail and brings at least some change. Last edited by residentgrigo on Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
||
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group