Forum - View topicANNCast - FRANXXly my Darling, I Don't Give A Damn
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鏡
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"Don't discriminate against the other" is not a "left" theme unless "the other" is a group or individual occupying a social category the left recognizes as discriminated against and if they are discriminated against in ways similar to the ways the left would like them not to be. One could easily frame heterosexuals or white people as the beleaguered and alienated "Other" in need of less discrimination. "Don't be mean to the Klaxosaurs/the horned lady" is not, prima facie, a leftist political position. I'm still glad I dropped this garbage in episode 3, regardless of whatever its politics are. The writing was so incompetent that I could not endure to find out what it was even trying to say thematically, and Hiro is the most insufferable protagonist I've ever watched for more than an episode. Judging by the kinds of conversations that surround this show, it seems pretty obvious that there is a level of thematic ambiguity that is allowing for polar-opposite readings of the show as simultaneously highly political and completely apolitical, which seems like a pretty huge failure on the part of the show's writing. If, according to your audience, your story is simultaneously pointed propaganda and an apolitical myth championing universal human values you have probably fucked up. Also, I appreciated Jake's trenchant explanation of "hate the sin, not the sinner" homophobia, because I've just literally never understood what that phrase is even supposed to mean in practice, or how its conceptual dissonance is meant to be resolved. |
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NeverConvex
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Sure, you could attempt to set up a traditionally empowered class of people as the 'Other' in a show, and that would subvert the usual usage of that idea and not be very left-leaning at all. But in FranXX the Other (especially 02) are very clearly discriminated against in precisely the ways rejected by traditional leftist politics: you should not marginalize a person just because they look different (have horns) or are of another race and feel differently from you (blue blood, red girl, Klaxosaurs). EDIT: I agree with the rest of what you're saying, though, at least so far. FranXX does not have a very coherent thesis, and it seems unlikely it will have one by show's end. I think the arguments that spawns are entertaining, even if I agree that it is a sign that the show has failed in significant ways. |
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Kikimani
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I'm reading these posts and wondering if we all listened to the same podcast. It's wild. |
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鏡
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Decrying discrimination against people on the basis of their horns or their blood colour is not a leftist position. As a result, the diegetic conceptual framework underpinning that discrimination (viz. the reasons why characters discriminate against 002/Klaxosaur appearance) has nothing to do with the kinds of a discrimination a leftist might decry. "Don't discriminate against people on the basis of how they look" is also not really a leftist position so much as it is a generic moral dictum that leftists generically hold to - that's why it's coherent with a conservative politic that might frame a white person as otherized on the basis of how they look. Last edited by 鏡 on Fri May 25, 2018 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NeverConvex
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You can change 'how they look' to 'what their race is' or 'what their origins are,' if you find those more obviously left-wing. All are simultaneously reinforced by the same scenes in FranXX. I don't think there's much point to trying to semantically wriggle into claiming that these aren't politically charged left-leaning themes that're apparent in FranXX. |
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鏡
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You sure could! And so could a white supremacist, who might then find the show nonetheless speaking directly to their soul. |
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NeverConvex
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No, they really couldn't, because a white supremacist fundamentally rejects the premise of those moral pronouncements: they precisely reject the idea that you should not discriminate on the basis of what a person's race or origins are, and in practice they reject the idea that you should not discriminate on the basis of how someone looks (as a heuristic for gauging ethnicity). I think this is a silly and obviously flawed attempt at semantically batting away textual evidence, so I'll leave this as my last comment on it. |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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My take on this is that while I don't think that Darling in the Franxx is some kind of diatribe against what westerners would consider "the left", it does contain a lot of elements that I find disturbingly familiar to the things that the oldest and most crotchety of my Bible school teachers used to tell us about "the gays". Luckily, the majority of the people in my congregation weren't like that, but I think that if, like Jacob, you grew up constantly inundated with that kind of thing, then it really doesn't matter whether other people have other interpretations of the show's themes... what matters is that the show is doing something similar to things from your childhood that constantly tried to convince you that the person you were was wrong.
There's a lot of "Other" in Japan other than just immigrants, and from what I've come to understand, the way that that particular faction of the LDP handles that is by: (a) being pro-"groups that foreigners would consider Japanese, but historically would have been marginalized"; (b) promoting foreign tourism and positive relations with China and pro-South Korea; and (c) using the term "foreign workers" instead of "immigrants" whenever possible, in order to ease people into a solution to Japan's problems that many Japanese people aren't going to end up liking. |
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鏡
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You must not talk to many white supremacists, because the notion that the races are "different in substance but equal in value" is a pretty common line of thought underpinning separatism and segregation.
Thanks, don't come back. |
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NeverConvex
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Mmm, yeah, I saw a bit of the foreign tourism / pro-Korea/China stuff when I googled it and checked out the relevant wiki. Was kind've unclear to me how "purely economic" that was, though, and whether there were any major xenophobic lines drawn within it. I think my line of questioning about immigrants was kind've weak in the first place, though (there is no real reason to identify 02 or the Klax's with immigrants, and my only real motivation for that was the wordplay with 'alien,' which is a pretty terrible line of reasoning, especially since the show's obviously not even originally in English, heh). I thought about this a bit more and had edited my earlier post with my updated thoughts, but I'll copy the relevant bit here: Thinking about it some more, my one major reservation here is that I don't really see anti-LGBTQ themes in FranXX; I think its handling of Ikuno was downright well done, for example, despite that Ichigo fucked up in understanding her, and I don't think Mitsuru's story arc ever had much to do LGBTQ issues, despite that it was ambiguous whether it would initially. As a result, as pertains to the Heisei Kenkyukai argument, I think the key issue is why they're anti-gay, and specifically: do they believe/suggest that the modern LGBTQ movement and/or gender studies activism are pushing for a genderless world? If so, I think this could be a pretty compelling read of FranXX, but if not then I think the textual evidence is weak. Last edited by NeverConvex on Fri May 25, 2018 10:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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I think that if we're going to tie anything in Franxx to Japanese gender politics, it might be better to approach this from the position of Franxx depicting not "the horrors of a genderless world", but rather "the horrors of a world without the traditional Japanese family unit". If anything, that's what the LDP says drives their opposition to gay marriage rights: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-election-lgbt-idUSKCN0ZM2L6 |
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NeverConvex
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Yes, I unreservedly agree that this is a good interpretation of FranXX. The show is obsessed with the traditional heterosexual family unit and procreation, and expresses horror over the thought of losing those things. I think most of the disagreement is over who the show ostensibly blames for whether those things might be lost (i.e., with whom to identify APE in the real world, and/or whether to identity them with any real-world group at all). Last edited by NeverConvex on Fri May 25, 2018 11:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TexZero
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That's fine to take it away, i also feel that the zac and jacob have every right to stick to how they feel. I'm not arguing that what they said is in any means the wrong position, i don't believe there's a clear position to take as is the beauty of all stories your vantage point (upbrining and background) will influence how and what you take away from the narrative. My point is merely that, they cannot be two-faced about wanting discourse but ultimately being so stubborn as to only approve their own vantage points of the show. Either they want healthy discourse or they want to preach on a podium. |
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NeverConvex
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I agree with this. I think it's also worth qualifying that, while I disagree with their position and wish it felt like there were more dialogue and less people trying to make in-bad-faith semantic arguments and/or preach either in the podcast or in the forums, I don't think it was at all wrong for Jacob, Zac, and James to try to analyze FranXX through a political lens. I don't think they got the analysis right, and I don't think every show has something meaningful to say politically or socially, but it is of course very often the case that a show's political and social commentary are the most interesting things about it. And, given all the sexual symbolism in FranXX, it's kind've the obvious kind of analysis to attempt in this case. |
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Kikimani
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Okay, you can't imagine it. Your persistence in dodging specifics in order to frame everything as being of or not of "the left"--and your courage to then accuse others of painting with a broad political brush--sure is...something. |
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