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outlaw55
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 52
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:28 pm
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Zac wrote: |
vashfanatic wrote: | It would clear up the mess if we all just agreed on one definition for the sake of argument.
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spoiler alert, this will never happen |
Go to urbandictionary.com and see what all of the submitted definitions say. It's pretty obvious what almost everyone on the internet (except for you guys apparently) think lolicon means. The definition is pretty consistent across the board. Refusing to admit you're wrong will just leave a lot of people with hurt feeling because they are offended, quite a few people just laughing because you are using terms incorrectly, and all for what? Pride? Typically the type of responses you guys are giving would be considered trolling. I expect trolling out of random forum members, but it's pretty embarrassing to see it coming from the staff.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:46 pm
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outlaw55 wrote: |
Go to urbandictionary.com and see what all of the submitted definitions say. It's pretty obvious what almost everyone on the internet (except for you guys apparently) think lolicon means. The definition is pretty consistent across the board. Refusing to admit you're wrong will just leave a lot of people with hurt feeling because they are offended, quite a few people just laughing because you are using terms incorrectly, and all for what? Pride? Typically the type of responses you guys are giving would be considered trolling. I expect trolling out of random forum members, but it's pretty embarrassing to see it coming from the staff. |
Erin sees the show as having overt lolicon overtones due to the underage nature and design of the characters and the focus on their master/slave relationship with their "brothers".
I can't really argue with that too much, and I can see it from her perspective, even though I don't necessarily agree with her choice of words. I don't think Gunslinger Girl is a loli show - it's far too careful about which lines it doesn't cross and doesn't (often) sexualize the underage characters, so I personally wouldn't classify it as "lolicon" per se. Other people certainly would, because their standards are different from mine.
It's all such hair-splitting. I read the Urbandictionary.com definitions you posted; I've seen this argument about what lolicon is and what moe is or isn't so many times on these forums that I guarantee you most of those definitions would be nitpicked and reworded to death if people were given the chance to do so here. There is rarely monolithic agreement; I've had people tell me that Kodomo no Jikan "is not a lolicon title" and how I don't know what I'm talking about when I say Clannad is a moe show. The definitions do seem to change based on whatever the argument we're having is.
And if I come across as a little flip or jokey about this whole thing, please understand that taking any of this really seriously is far sillier than anything I've said or posted. I joke around a lot; it's the only way to stay sane.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23792
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:52 pm
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I've been enjoying your levity, Zac. Carry on!
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zrdb
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:21 pm
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I found Gunslinger Girl to be creepy-but for a different reason than most everybody else-if you've ever read Isaac Asimov's I Robot you know about the 3 laws of robotics-1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Well-if these little girls are mostly biomechanical then they are (or very nearly) robots and they are basically programmed to kill-what happened to humanity? And little girls? Why not little boys or women?
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doctordoom85
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2093
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:59 pm
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Does any of this really matter?! It's not like Erin said the people who watch it must be sick/weird/perverts/etc. or anything of that sort, and lord knows select ANN reviews have pretty much walked up to that line (of commenting on an audience instead of the show itself), leaned over it, and said, "I still TECHNICALLY haven't crossed it".
And yet after a website's history of that, Erin is getting criticized for 7 pages only because she had a different interpretation of a series? Is that all it takes anymore? Okay, she may have misused a word, but it's not the end of the world.
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Megiddo
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:05 pm
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Wait, so what is this "Talkback" for if it's not for letting the writer know what we thought of the content of their article/review/etc?
Obviously if it wasn't a rather big error, there would not be so many people criticizing Erin's review, or at the very least, branding of the show as "lolicon".
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outlaw55
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 52
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:00 pm
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Zac wrote: |
outlaw55 wrote: |
Go to urbandictionary.com and see what all of the submitted definitions say. It's pretty obvious what almost everyone on the internet (except for you guys apparently) think lolicon means. The definition is pretty consistent across the board. Refusing to admit you're wrong will just leave a lot of people with hurt feeling because they are offended, quite a few people just laughing because you are using terms incorrectly, and all for what? Pride? Typically the type of responses you guys are giving would be considered trolling. I expect trolling out of random forum members, but it's pretty embarrassing to see it coming from the staff. |
Erin sees the show as having overt lolicon overtones due to the underage nature and design of the characters and the focus on their master/slave relationship with their "brothers".
I can't really argue with that too much, and I can see it from her perspective, even though I don't necessarily agree with her choice of words. I don't think Gunslinger Girl is a loli show - it's far too careful about which lines it doesn't cross and doesn't (often) sexualize the underage characters, so I personally wouldn't classify it as "lolicon" per se. Other people certainly would, because their standards are different from mine.
It's all such hair-splitting. I read the Urbandictionary.com definitions you posted; I've seen this argument about what lolicon is and what moe is or isn't so many times on these forums that I guarantee you most of those definitions would be nitpicked and reworded to death if people were given the chance to do so here. There is rarely monolithic agreement; I've had people tell me that Kodomo no Jikan "is not a lolicon title" and how I don't know what I'm talking about when I say Clannad is a moe show. The definitions do seem to change based on whatever the argument we're having is.
And if I come across as a little flip or jokey about this whole thing, please understand that taking any of this really seriously is far sillier than anything I've said or posted. I joke around a lot; it's the only way to stay sane. |
I appreciate your very well worded and thoughtful reply ! I understand your standpoint of her seeing what she sees and I can respectfully agree with that, but personally I would avoid calling anything moe or lolicon in a review, but that's just me. Of course, maybe that's me avoiding conflicts, lol...
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tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:01 pm
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Seriously now (on my part)
I didn't like Gunslinger Girl. When I watched it the first time, I never got a lolicon vibe from the show. I appreciated how much work went into the production, but the show itself was just too cruel and cynical for my tastes. I didn't think I would ever watch it again, so I didn't buy it.
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vashfanatic
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:52 pm
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tuxedocat wrote: | and I'm not into Granniecon, either.
and until we can describe the REAL definition of Granniecon, I'm not admitting to anything. |
Call it "babacon." Using Japanese makes you sound cool!
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Maigraith
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 80
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:03 pm
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In regards to the tear duct thing, there are more reasons to cry than just emotional. Tears can flush stuff out of your eyes, I'm guessing pretty much everyone has gotten either a speck of dust or an eyelash in your eye and knows what a pain that is.
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:50 pm
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Zac wrote: |
vashfanatic wrote: | It would clear up the mess if we all just agreed on one definition for the sake of argument.
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spoiler alert, this will never happen |
Yeah, I've been hesitant to post my personal definition, not just for the fear that it will be picked apart, but also because I hate being wrong. I don't recognize urban dictionary as a legitimate source, and wikipedia also seems like a weak source. I don't think might makes right in the forums, either.
I wanted a much more definitive source. My expert got back to me, and according to him Yotsuba& is lolicon and Gunslinger Girl is not. He claims it has everything to do with the reader's feelings towards the girls themselves and not so much with the sexual content. Although this might be closer to an agreed upon Japanese definition of lolicon, it's certainly not going to win me any friends in this country.
vashfanatic wrote: | I have a feeling I understand Erin's basic objection, a concern that the rather hideous plight of young girls and their relationships to those entrusted to take care of them might be a symptom of fetish rather than drama, that this is intended to be appealing rather than appalling. Which is admittedly a difficult thing to determine when looking at something... especially something 13 episodes long with minimal thematic development thanks to having, like, 8 girls in the story rather than a manageable number. Am I closing in on the issue or not? |
Yes, I think you're getting warmer. It bothered me how they kept introducing new characters without fleshing out established characters. What the heck?!
Another simple "lolicon test" might be to ask "Is the original creator a lolicon artist?" in the case of GG the answer is yes.
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Mikeski
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:55 am
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erinfinnegan wrote: | Another simple "lolicon test" might be to ask "Is the original creator a lolicon artist?" in the case of GG the answer is yes. |
That's an odd test... by extension, then, any anime based on an eroge is hentai? Any anime by the same artist is hentai? I'm going to feel much dirtier watching Utawarerumono now...
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Ojamajo LimePie
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 766
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 6:36 am
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erinfinnegan wrote: |
My expert got back to me, and according to him Yotsuba& is lolicon |
Okay, I seriously want to know who this so-called "expert" is, and what his credentials are.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23792
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 6:43 am
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erinfinnegan wrote: | Another simple "lolicon test" might be to ask "Is the original creator a lolicon artist?" in the case of GG the answer is yes. |
Who do I contact at ANN to get a "jaw drop" emoticon added to the list around here?
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Ranma824
Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 456
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Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:09 am
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erinfinnegan wrote: | I wanted a much more definitive source. My expert got back to me, and according to him Yotsuba& is lolicon and Gunslinger Girl is not. |
Yeah....um... despite the reaction in this thread, and my personal disagreements about your view of lolicon; you may be better off just sticking with your original opinion ^^;
Quote: | He claims it has everything to do with the reader's feelings towards the girls themselves and not so much with the sexual content. |
See, that sounds like an ok definition of moe - but the "reader's feelings" part is just to vague. That could be anything from 'nothing' to 'sexually turned on', no matter what the content is.
At the same time, the fandom usually comes to some weird sort of consensus on what terminology you can put on a show. That doesn't mean you can't have your own opinion; just be ready for threads such as this to occur.
I don't know about Japan, but in R1 I don't think either Yotsuba& or GG would be labeled as lolicon.
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