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NEWS: 4Kids Profit Falls Again

That's the most outrageously biased otaku comment I have ever read, "naruto fan". You lot are bashing 4Kids solely on the failure of the One Piece dub, and conveniently forget they upgraded the anime market up from a "niche" to "mainstream",

paving the way for other companies like FUNimation and Viz to make excellent and high quality shows.

4Kids' head was in the right place to realign One Piece for a child's demographic, though their efforts were disasterous.

Incompetence is not a sin when the individual buyer has nothing to lose;

If 4Kids does well, the small hope of getting those DVDs increases.

Dragonball Z did not become huge until it was broadcast (along with Sailor Moon) on Cartoon Network, while Pokemon was presented on the limited access KidsWB around the same time.

Which franchise exponentially exploded, such that even mainstream comedians like Bill Cosby heard of and took cracks at the enormously popular show?

Let us also not forget that Saban's last major anime hit, Digimon, was licensed as a response to Pokemon.

Big News! Cartoons have been thought of as a children's market since the 1950's. 4Kids, through its marketing of the huge property that was/is Pokemon, almost single-handedly brought all Western eyes to Japan, and paved the way for the apex of anime popularity in 2002, which heralded the era of Yu-Gi-Oh, the emergence of the American Shounen Jump Magazine, [adult swim]'s formation (and the emergence of "adult anime" through Cowboy Bebop) and Dragonball Z's roaring reign as king on Cartoon Network.

Basically put, Akira and Ghost in the Shell would still be 'cult films' instead of "science fiction standards" if 4Kids did not virtually introduce anime into Western vernacular, even if the term is "for adults".

Mature anime came out long before Bittorent did, and, if anything, Naruto's popularity is a living testament to the widespread use of Bittorent.

Shaman King's dub, aside from the silly name changes, is widely agreed to be a very good adaptation. It's not 4Kids' fault that it wasn't a very appealing show.

All the shoujo titles licensed by 4Kids have done well.

The sucky shows dubbed by 4Kids were made better with their writing (like Fighting Foodons), and Kinnikuman II Sei, better known as Ultimate Muscle, had an additional season animated by Toei due to the popularity of 4Kids' adaptation, even though the show was cancelled in Japan.

Uh, he's right. They're also flunking science.

Since previously localised dubs were successful without having the brand of "anime" on them (notably, Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon, which are the "grand slams" of the genre in terms of popularity), they continued to approach their shows with a working formula.

Additionally, 4Kids only took the first step (or giant leap); the 1954 court case Brown v. Board of Education that reversed local/state southern de facto or de jure segregation bylaws did little by itself, but further legislation helped fully eradicate segregation except in the case of "natural" segregation (that is, blocks where a certain ethnic group are concentrated in).

Brown set the presidence and agenda, and only by expanding on it could real progress be made. 4Kids' is much the same; in their pursuit of profit, they merely introduced the West to anime.

Actually, I do remember those, but for purpose of argument, NO, and most people outside of this forum do not nor care about those old shows.

Pokemon was the defining show because it had a limited broadcast yet attracted far more viewers than either DBZ or SM at the time.

DBZ aired a lot of places because FUNimation/Saban was having trouble finding an outlet.

Like, what?

4Kids did not introduce those shows, it made them acceptable for adults/mainstream people to watch.

My assertion is backed by Nielson Media Ratings for all of the shows broadcast in the Winter 2005 sampling period. Surprisingly, the worst rated shows on 4Kids.tv were One Piece and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! One of those shows is good, so *obviously*, Nielson made a mistake in their sampling, aye?
Saturday Mornings appear to be girl-oriented now....

That's like going to Orange County in California and polling, "How many of you will support Hillary Rodham Clinton in the 2008 Presidential Election?"

More Big News! 4Kids is not an anime company! They could give a rat's arse about anime fans! They're a children's entertainment company, people! -.-

The same applies to Miyazaki. Nausicaä and Cagliostro's dubs were instrumental in leading to Ghibli's "no edit" policy, so everything came out for the better in the end.

The fundamental problem with everyone I've debated anywhere is that people are not willing to accept that there could be multiple factors involved in some sort of political, economic, social or media phenomenon. One result does not imply one cause! The US Federal Government had to commission an independent counsel to investiate the circumstances leading up the the 11 September 2001 attacks; the commission filled an entire book wit analysis of those circumstances!

So for you to claim that 4kids put anime on the map is just wrong. If any American company is going to make that claim, I would vote for DIC or Saban who were around LONG before 4kids.

Because currently they're in a stage where their properties aren't at their peak, and they're introducing self-made properties. As they said, it's a SHORT TERM loss. They'll be climbing back up, because they're trying to not rely on Anime.

Uncut One Piece DVDs would not save 4Kids nor make them such a substantial ammount of profit.

It might make them a profit, but it wouldn't make them such a huge, substantial profit, not one they'd expect.

They've also gone on record to say that the profit they seek/feel worthwhile isn't from DVD sales, but rather toys, games, etc (as they were going to offer their media for free).

Actually, 4Kids did not bring all western eyes to Japan. Remember the classic shows, Robotech, Speed Racer? Those brought Western Eyes in Japan.

If you mean the 90's through 2000's, then Sailor Moon brought people's attention to anime.

It's like saying that due to the (failure) popularity of let's say Kirby Right Back at Ya, in America, that they would (waste) use their time wisely, to create another (failure) season. Just look at all three ratings, of all three shows, Ulimate Muscle, Fighting Foodons, and Kirby Right Back at Ya.

Actually, Akira and GitS were much more popular prior to this imagined "Pokemon backlash" than now. Heck, I have trouble going into most stores nowadays and finding a copy of Akira or the original GitS. A few years ago it was mandatory stock.

Its also worth nothing... they are STILL cult films. Both of these franchises (GitS less-so) are looked-upon as rather crude scifi.

But what about Evangelion? Evangelion was released on VHS in 1997, predating the syndicated release of the Pokemon anime in 1998. I guess we all know that the Eva fans started watching pokemon... (sarcasm)

Which still doesn't make up for the fact that OP could have been the biggest thing since Pokemon in the states.

* Sailor Moon (DiC)

Sandy Frank didn't treat Gatchaman as badly as 4Kids treated its anime properties.

Voyager entertainment Westernized Space Battleship Yamato, managed to fit within TV broadcast standards and still made it a good show.

Pokemon showed up in 1998, but by then anime was on the growth curve by this point due in large part to Blockbuster suddenly stocking more anime.

While anime did exist here before Pokemon (notably Speed Racer, Robotech, and Dragonball Z) they were no where near as popular as Pokemon was back in its big boom (and Dragonball Z is probably the only one of those three that people knew it was from Japan)

Dragonball Z may have helped anime get a foot in the door; but Pokemon kicked the door down and crashed the party. Without Pokemon anime would be far less mainstream than it is today.

One Piece being released uncut in America would do nothing for the anime market.

Trying to say One Piece would help make it more mainstream like Pokemon did is laughable.

I don't expect that day to come anytime soon, they have hundreds of millions stored in the bank. And besides, I wouldn't expect their profit to increase simply because alot of new shows are premiering in the fall, so they were busy producing new episodes. I predict that their next statement will indicate profit.

In Japan, OP's are primarily ment to promote the song, however in North America, its usually there just ..... well, just to get the audience to tune into the show. So by 4Kids "failing" to further OP's, that statement is absolutely ludacris.

Besides, the OP shouldn't have to further Anime into mainstream, its the actual storyline and plot that should promote it.

I can't imagine anyone defending Carl Macek like some are defending 4Kids, back in the day, when he was butchering Castle Cagliostro to make it more accessible.

Also, it's important to note that 4Kids still made money. So what if their profits weren't as high this time as they were last year? Many of you are touting it as 4Kids going bankrupt.

They're a necessary evil, much as Streamline was in the early 90s

As long as they fit the Ninja Rap in there, it'll be just fine.

That we are not their target demographic? Maybe, just maybe, instead of trying to market to anime fans, they are marketing to children?? Why would they try to make their shows friendlier to us than children, when parents spend a ton more money on merchandise for kids than otaku do? That makes no sense at all.

I think the answer to that is they get what they think they can sell. I find it hard to imagine a bunch of American elementary schoolers sitting down to watch either of the titles you mentioned.

I've also heard that the uncut Shaman King and Yugioh DVDs didn't sell too well, which probably led to 4kids' decision.

Doubt it. It was always going to lose to Naruto, even if 4Kids did a good job with it. But at least it could have done as well as Yu Yu Hakusho and (most likely) Bleach.

Actually, shows like Speed Racer, Robotech, and DBZ continue to be as popular as Pokemon is today. Hence the reason that Speed Racer's getting a live-action film, Robotech's getting a new series, and FUNimation brought over GT. Now if you mean financially successful, DBZ's probably as close as you can get,
even though it obviously wasn't as big as Pokemon; but it probably had more impact on anime being mainstream than Pokemon. The majority of t-shirts and websites, for example, were for DBZ. People were bootlegging DBZ even before 4Kids had the rights. It was that huge.

It could have done something, but now we'll never know.
No broadcast network wants to take chances on titles for older viewers in the afternoon slot, even though some of the bigger success stories have been Gargoyles and Batman. And we all know what happened when Warner Bros. watered down the latter show like 4Kids did to One Piece.

Ataru:

Quote:

As long as they fit the Ninja Rap in there, it'll be just fine.

I guess in this version, it'll be Kid Rock.

Just to confirm, the previous episodes were animated by Toei and constituted as a different license or some such.

Think of it as like, I dunno, it's the first episode of a second series, sort of how you don't need to watch all of the original dragonball to get the first episode of Z or something stupid.

The big difference between One Piece and Gantz is that Gantz is essentially an Adult/older teens show, whereas One Piece is a family/Children's show. Gantz also doesnt have the length nor marketability that One Piece did/does/have.

It;s aired at a 6 oclock or so timeslot with things like Dragonball, Pokemon, Yugioh, Zoids, Gundam, Transformers, all shows meant to sell toys to children in one way or another.

4Kids got it because-
1. Toei charged a lot of money for it.

2. Toei wants the show to succeed with the same crowd that it does in Japan, that being children.

3. 4Kids have done that, as they've handled Yugioh and Pokemon, aswell as other things. They're a very likely candidate.

4. 4Kids contact Toei, and pay the money and negotiate the contracts.

If Toei wanted the show to be aimed at a 'higher' audience, they wouldn't have let 4Kids do what they do, which is make programming for children.

you are right in a way, that kids do grow up and move on. However, there's always another generation behind them that 4Kids will want to market their stuff to, and that's how they operate.

Children are MUCh easier to market and sell things towards than teenagers and what not, especially if it's a media-based thing like TV shows and what not.

Sailor Moon actually was big, before airing on Cartoon Network. It aired 1995, as I remember it airing in UPN

Sailor Moon was big, along with Samurai Pizza Cats.

What people fail to realise is that just because it's a show for children, doesn't mean only children have to watch it.

Perhaps Pokemon did help anime a lot. Personally for me my obssession was sparked Cartoon Network circa the Tenchi Muyo/Gundam Wing/DBZ era also video rental places carrying anime at the same time, but I imagine a percentage of fans came out of there.

If they went out of business it would be no big loss to anyone except maybe TMNT fans.

Okay, you're really liberal with the use of the term "rape", which really doesn't describe the situation. Check the definition and try again.

And according to your model, the same terms could be applied to ADV and Funimation due to some of their edits for CN, in addition to some of their past actions and practices.

If they thought the adult demographic was worth going after, they would, and we would see vastly different edits.

That said, this is nothing compared to some of the stuff that distributors have done in the past to market a show to kids.

Pokemon first aired about 10 years ago, and look at the median age of anime fans. It's pretty close to that age group.

- Ghost Stories: dialogue is heavily edited, despite it being (IMO) an amusing series

- Many of ADV's early titles were taken from the bin of "Macek Maulings" (Streamline, etc.) and the series sold were the exact same edits.

Macek himself now works as an exec for ADV, despite being known as one of the worst of the "hack and slash" editors of anime

DBZ DVDs were not originally uncut. It took some time (and a lot of complaints from impatient fans) before Funimation released them.

4Kids made titles popular that may have never been picked up by other companies.

They also made compeition in sorts for other Anime Companies to liscene more titles

Hell if 4Kid's Pokemon wasn't a hit I doubt Nelvana (a Company which doesn't liscene alot of Anime) would liscene Beyblade even though their dub may have questionable edits

However, anime fans spend much less money than parents. There are a lot more kids out there than anime fans (unfortunately). One Piece may be a children's show in Japan, but according to ANN, here it's Teenagers (May contain bloody violence, bad language, nudity). Which means there is no way many parents would let their children watch it.

Therefore, in pleasing a smaller buying group, they would lose a larger one, in essence losing money.

Not that you have much of a choice in case of VHD:Bloodlust... which is a shame, really. The dub voices are mostly good and so are their performances, but the dialogue is horrible.It's overwrought, cheesy, and sometimes even pointless.

Shueisha should share some of the blame by even remotely considering licensing the franchise to 4Kids.

With a poor dub like Naruto got, OP could compare if 4Kids did a perfect job with it.

Funimation ALWAYS had the rights to DBZ. What made you think otherwise is the fact that the OCEAN group did the dubbing for the first 30 or so odd episodes before Funimation took over the dubbing.

Another show is Big O when it was on the Toonami block. Became so popular, in terms of raitings, that CN dumpped a butt load of money on Sunrise to make a second season.

1. I see Toei listed for all of them.

What exactly could be marketable about One Piece by 4Kids standards? Sure, it has card games, but it's not a series about card games.

But not all of them are animated specifically to sell toys.

FUNimation could have paid for it, but chose Conan instead.

But obviously, DBZ sells well with children under FUNimation. So it sounds like 4Kids made some false claims about how well they could market OP.

But YuGiOh and Pokemon are different shows than OP. And once again, DBZ did well under FUNimation, too. It would have made more sense for OP to go to FUNimation, since they actually had experience marketing fighting shows.

FUNimation contacted Toei, too, and even paid for their own dub of OP.

If Toei knew what it was doing, it wouldn't dubtitle shows which have niche appeal in the U.S, either.

But it won't be 4Kids who will reach those kids. They're through as a major player in the animation game. It's like when Nelvana tried to make a comeback with Card Captors.

If they were easy to market to, then the edited OP would do well, now wouldn't it?

Chopper.

What's markettable about it is that it's a kid and his friends going around on a big adventure, beating the crap out of people and comedy and bleeeeh~

In a ways they are, though toys was meant to cover a few things, such as soundtracks, card games etc. Thats the reason a lot of companies finance these series and why they run for so long- because companies intend to gain from them being animated and shown on TV.

As you have neither access to figures or statistics between Toei and FUNimation negotiations nor how much it would have cost etc, you can't make that assertion

DBZ sold well, but then again so did Pokemon and Yugioh, which gives them a sort of one-up against FUNimation,

THey're different kinds, but from a corporate merchandising level, no they're not. They're the same audience, same timeslots,

Which leads us to the conlusion- Toei has no idea what it is they are doing.

it's just kids are not so provy to notice changes in quality that teenagers and older people might.

2. Someone needs to restrict your use of the Rolling Eyes image you condescending dickhead.

But then 4Kids would have to pull a Card Captors and only use the episodes which feature him, so it'd be a lot of work and money down the drain.

I think Luffy's more like a teen or young adult when he leaves home. But anyway, the concept would fit in with the DBZ and Yu Yu Hakusho demo, but I don't see how it would appeal to kids who collect cards and capsules.

But they obviously aren't gonna make much money off of GITS: Sac, Blood+ or Gantz, so why do they bother?

I don't see how a 400+ episode series like Conan would be any cheaper than a 270+ episode series like One Piece. Even if TMS's asking price was lower than Toei's, FUNi would still have to deal with marketing and dvd costs for Conan as much as One Piece, and take a bigger risk in the process, because Conan has a smaller audience than OP.

Considering FUNimation's got a better future ahead than 4Kids, it's more like a lost life.

They're the same audience and timeslots in Japan, not the U.S.

*cough* Transformers Headmasters Saga *cough*

Aight. I can see it unnerves you, so I took it down in this post.

I don't see how a 400+ episode series like Conan would be any cheaper than a 270+ episode series like One Piece. Even if TMS's asking price was lower than Toei's, FUNi would still have to deal with marketing and dvd costs for Conan as much as One Piece, and take a bigger risk in the process, because Conan has a smaller audience than OP.

I'd rather put up with Christopher Sabat butcher another role than a studio butcher another franchise as a whole.

I trust that there are anime fans out there who aren't fixated on ultra violence or sexual content that they would shun a quality anime such as Spirited Away or Hikaru no Go which might be geared for kids but appropriate for all ages. I admit when I was younger I used to have this mentality where I thought anime was so much superior then American cartoons because it wasn't for kiddies and I'm mature because I'm seeing all these disturbing ultra violent rated-R imagery but now, I kind of outgrown all that. I think a lot of that has to do with the image that companies tried to perpetuate on anime back in the days, for a while those were the only types of anime we were getting so that added to the stereotype that anime is for "Adults only". But the anime market is so diverse now with the selection so vast that fans are opening up to different genres, hell I'll watch Shojo, romance, drama, or mundane simple everyday slice of life type shows designed for kids. I believe the deeper you get into the culture the more open you become. I remember an agrument on G4 where they got the founder of ANN and some Comic Book Guy bad mouthing anime fans saying we're all snobs and think anime can do no wrong but those fans are usually the noobs, the real fans who've been in it for a while aren't like that.