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I'd disagree with point two for Berserk, as it's very crucial to character relations throughout the series.

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eta: oh, I have to disagree with your point #2, as well Otaking09: the bromance between Guts (snicker) and Griffith is a pretty important focus of Beserk.

Well, yeah. Bromance is a good word to describe Berserk's situation.
But "true" romance is when a relationship happens in a loving, possibly intimate manner. Y'know... like Blue Gender, or Elfen Lied, or maybe even Neon Genesis.

They're both just dark, gritty stories. I do appreciate the human soul in both, but Berserk's overbearing nature is extremely hard to tolerate. I may like Claymore more, mostly because it's technically a Shonen Jump.

Otaking09 wrote:

But "true" romance is when a relationship happens in a loving, possibly intimate manner. Y'know... like Blue Gender, or Elfen Lied, or maybe even Neon Genesis.

I'd say spoiler[the triangle between Guts, Casca and Griffith is pretty constant. And even if it is primarily one-sided in terms of intimate interest, Charlotte's relationship with Griffith isn't exactly platonic, either.]

Otaking09 wrote:

They're both just dark, gritty stories.

No, not really. This is the point I was making. There are undoubtedly many superficial similarities. (Unless you want to be ridiculously specific like HellKorn, but then that's pretty pointless. If you're that specific then almost NO series are comparable). Why I dislike the comparison though is that Berserk is a truly dark and gritty story. Claymore is basically another fairly silly shonen show (albeit a rather good one) but a bit more violent. To me, you can't really compare it to Berserk.

There are many differences and many similarities between the two shows.

For me, the most salient difference between Berserk and Claymore was how I felt about their respective endings. Berserk's ending left me practically screaming for more, whereas Claymore's ending (not to mention the rather mediocre few episodes leading up to it) left me ambivalent about the thought of a second season.

And the biggest similarity? Jeez, that's a hard one, as there is many to choose from. But I would hazard that both shows depict bleak dreary worlds in which humanity is not the dominant force, and then give us a protagonist who struggles almost in vain against great power. Or, you know, I could always go with the BFS' that Guts and Clare wield.

Otaking09 wrote:

HellKorn, Blood-... seeing as how it was me who brought up the whole "Berserk and Claymore seem similiar", I'll just point out what makes sense to me.

1. Both leads have a STRONG will, and heavy wounded pasts.

2. Romance is not a primary focus in these series.

3. Gore, violence, betrayal, explicit sexual themes, and fantasy/supernatural elements are ever-present.

4. Both anime series ended incomplete.

5. Chris Beveridge had out some good points...

6. The leads are hardened warriors with an itty, bitty super-sweet chewy center in the middle.

A few comments. Point 1 I agree with, and I do with point 2 to an extent, though romance is much more heavily featured in Berserk than Claymore, even if it's still not the primary focus.

As for point 3, Claymore has no real explicit sexual themes, and the supernatural elements are very subdued: in fact, spoiler[it's not clear if Claymore even really has any definite supernatural elements if you take into account certain manga revelations.]

The Claymore ending for the anime wasn't really incomplete either, it deverged from the manga to form it's own ending, and while it didn't wrap everything up 100%, it resolved most of the major plot threads to an extent at least. While the Berserk anime just... ended.

Don't know precisely what you are refering to with point 5.

And the last point makes me laugh when I think of Guts that way, but I understand what you mean.

I think one of the biggest reasons why so many people compare Claymore and Berserk is that they are both set in medieval style worlds, and they are both serious and fairly dark/violent fantasies. And really, how many anime/manga series are set in a medieval style world? How many current or at least recent series? I honestly can't think of one that isn't drastically different from Claymore/Berserk for other reasons.

Combine that fact with the huge swords both main characters use, and some of the similiar themes, and I can definitely see why people compare the two series so often.

I do think they are actually a lot more different than some people realize, though.

I also think some Claymore fans are probably a bit defensive when Claymore is compared with Berserk because they've seen many Berserk fans deride Claymore as nothing more than "Berserk-lite" or "Berserk for those who can't handle the more extreme content of Berserk." So there's perhaps a tendancy to deny that their are any similarities between the two, which isn't really true. But having some similarities to Berserk is certainly not an insult to Claymore, nor does it mean that it doesn't stand on its own.

ikillchicken wrote:

Otaking09 wrote:

They're both just dark, gritty stories.

No, not really. This is the point I was making. There are undoubtedly many superficial similarities. (Unless you want to be ridiculously specific like HellKorn, but then that's pretty pointless. If you're that specific then almost NO series are comparable). Why I dislike the comparison though is that Berserk is a truly dark and gritty story. Claymore is basically another fairly silly shonen show (albeit a rather good one) but a bit more violent. To me, you can't really compare it to Berserk.

You don't find Berserk kind of silly, too? Sorry, any time I see a character wielding a sword as big as him or herself, I can't really take it too seriously. That cowardly, oafish general that Guts & Co. routed out of the Keep was a very broad, silly character of the type you would never have found in Claymore.

Look, don't get me wrong. I very much like and enjoy both shows and I don't champion one over the other. But unless you are one of those dreary fanboys who loves getting into earnest debates over who would win in a fight, Superman or The Hulk, there is no need to steadfastly maintain that there is some huge gulf of difference between the two shows.

HellKorn wrote:

I'd say spoiler[the triangle between Guts, Casca and Griffith is pretty constant. And even if it is primarily one-sided in terms of intimate interest.]

One could state that the parallel in Claymore isspoiler[ the Clare/Raki/Pricilla triangle in Claymore. Clare just isn't aware of it yet.]

I really wish they'd animate a new season as well. Did they show fail in popularity or something to kill all interest in continuing?

ikillchicken wrote:

No, not really. This is the point I was making. There are undoubtedly many superficial similarities. (Unless you want to be ridiculously specific like HellKorn, but then that's pretty pointless. If you're that specific then almost NO series are comparable).

How am I being "ridiculously specific"? You can't just ignore things like character relationships and development, setting (the environment visually and socially), art direction, action direction, music, thematic ideas, etc. It's perfectly okay to recommend Berserk to someone who likes Claymore for, say, the bad-ass main character cutting up enemies while on a path for revenge; it's another to actually view both works and overstate how similar they are with just superficial similarities.

littlegreenwolf wrote:

One could state that the parallel in Claymore isspoiler[ the Clare/Raki/Pricilla triangle in Claymore. Clare just isn't aware of it yet.]

Doesn't this spoiler[primarily occur after material adapted to the anime? Regardless, the dynamics aren't the same.]

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I really wish they'd animate a new season as well. Did they show fail in popularity or something to kill all interest in continuing?

Might not have sold enough on DVD to continue an adaption, even though the manga does well.

HellKorn wrote:

You can't just ignore things like character relationships and development, setting (the environment visually and socially), art direction, action direction, music, thematic ideas, etc. It's perfectly okay to recommend Berserk to someone who likes Claymore for, say, the bad-ass main character cutting up enemies while on a path for revenge; it's another to actually view both works and overstate how similar they are with just superficial similarities.

Sure you can--there is no need to write a critical comparrison/contrast essay about the differences and similarities between Berserk and Claymore. The review simply gave some historical context:

Claymore BLURAY review wrote:

In the 1990s, Berserk became the epitome of the kind of dark, graphically violent fantasy anime beloved by American fans. Claymore assumes that role for the first decade of the 2000s.

That is all the review stated about Berserk. Anyone reading into this statement "these two series are very similar" has a more active imagination than is healthy.

Now, a few of us in the comments section took that statement further--and I was definitely one of them. Still, I think that most people interpret a concept like "Claymore is similar to Berserk" as a fairly ambiguous thing that isn't meant to represent every aspect--and usually only the superficial surface elements. To use a music example (since I spent the larger part of my teenage years reviewing music for various online publications), I would have no qualms with saying something like "Owl City is similar to The Postal Service." (Granted, I'd try to craft it in a more poetic way... but for the sake of this blurb this'll work.) That doesn't mean I think that the lyrics are similar, that the key they play in is the same, or that the song structures are identical--it simply means that the two artists have a very complimentary sound.

It is a phrase that implies a similarity (of a show, band, book, etc) beyond genre, without actually reaching the level of sharing a lot of identical attributes.

I've never been able to crack the code with respect to what anime will get more than one season. Clearly, high ratings and strong Japanese DVD sales are a good sign, but no guarantee. Perhaps the uncertainty comes in because, from what I understand, proceeding with a second season can require getting a number of approvals from different sources and this isn't always easy to line up.

TheTheory stated the crucial factor that I was trying to get at in the review best: nothing I said was intended to be a direct comparison of Claymore and Beserk, only a comparison on their place within the anime landscape. Even though it is a Shonen Jump title, to deny that Claymore is at least generally in the same class as Berserk - i.e. that it's a dark, graphic, violent, and serious fantasy series in a fairly bleak setting - is to entirely ignore the substance and presentation of the series. Whether you think one or another is "silly" in the way it approaches these things is irrelevant; they both undeniably have those traits.

And really, is it such a stretch to see how series focused on characters swinging massive swords might be compared with each other and/or considered similar, regardless of how differently they play out?

Really, methinks the Berserk fanatics out there doth protest too much.

Last edited by ikillchicken on Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

Blood- wrote:

You don't find Berserk kind of silly, too? Sorry, any time I see a character wielding a sword as big as him or herself, I can't really take it too seriously. That cowardly, oafish general that Guts & Co. routed out of the Keep was a very broad, silly character of the type you would never have found in Claymore.

Admittedly, the General is a very broad comic relief character and a rather questionable addition to the series. He's basically the sole exception though. I mean, even the sword thing is semi-justified. He starts training with a regular sword as a kid and keeps scaling up as he grows so he's used to using a sword that's too big for him. That may not actually work in the real world but at least it's something. It's not like I'm trying to say Berserk is somehow flawless though. It's just, next to Claymore there's no contest. I mean come on. There's so much formulaic shonen BS. Everyone's got their little special technique and there's a whole silly ranking system. There's a lot of talk of power auras and little power up sequences. When the hero is defeated she must train and learn a new technique to return and defeat the enemy. People constantly launch into big discussions and speeches mid battle.

Of course, all of this is getting away from the point I'm trying to make. Claymore is not really that dark or violent. I mean yeah, it's not a cheerful, feel good show like your typical shonen stuff. But that's my complaint right there. People seem to be looking at based on that scale and that's fine. But then you can't really turn around and compare it to shows like Berserk then. Compared to it, Claymore is pretty tame.

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But unless you are one of those dreary fanboys who loves getting into earnest debates over who would win in a fight, Superman or The Hulk, there is no need to steadfastly maintain that there is some huge gulf of difference between the two shows.

Yeah well unless you rape puppies then you'll agree with what I'm saying. (Now that's not a very good argument is it? Because it's just baseless Ad Hominem). Also, you seem equally eager* to insist that they're the same so don't attack me for arguing my point. If I'm a fanboy arguing that Superman would win then you're one arguing for the Hulk.

*If not more so. I'll direct your attention to that whole ridiculous back and forth with HellKorn earlier in the thread.

HellKorn wrote:

How am I being "ridiculously specific"? You can't just ignore things like character relationships and development, setting (the environment visually and socially), art direction, action direction, music, thematic ideas, etc.

Well yeah, but no two shows are going to be perfect clones of each other. It just seems to me that if you want to get as specific as you are then no two shows will be comparable.

Key wrote:

Really, methinks the Berserk fanatics out there doth protest too much.

And yet here you and several others are 'protesting' right back. Spare us the hypocrisy.

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nothing I said was intended to be a direct comparison of Claymore and Beserk, only a comparison on their place within the anime landscape.

I think... I HOPE people are thinking about that too...

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Even though it is a Shonen Jump title, to deny that Claymore is at least generally in the same class as Berserk - i.e. that it's a dark, graphic, violent, and serious fantasy series in a fairly bleak setting - is to entirely ignore the substance and presentation of the series. Whether you think one or another is "silly" in the way it approaches these things is irrelevant; they both undeniably have those traits.

It'd be kinda sad for people to get worked up over something as petty as a title. EX: It'd be an insult to compare Berserk to a Shonen Jump.
Death Note can be compared to Code Geass, even DN is a "Shonen Jump".

To me, the more people talk about the comparisons, the more I don't want to see Claymore, and finish Berserk. Even though I most likely will... Rolling Eyes

Claymore isn't really dark and violent? Oh, come on. What would you call the scene where spoiler[Theresa's head is separated from her shoulders by Priscilla? So far that scene has had more horrific impact on me than anything in the first 12 episodes of Beserk where all the dead have been generic hack and slay soldiers.]

I grant you that Claymore is further down the shonen slope in some respects but where we differ is what impact that has on how similar or not we think the shows are.

Blood- wrote:

Claymore isn't really dark and violent?

That's not what I said now is it. I said it's not really that dark or violent compared to Berserk. That being the case...yeah. If the worst Claymore has to offer is a severed head then it's no contest. In Berserk you've got... spoiler[Guts adoptive father tries to murder him as a kid and he is forced to kill him. Casca is sold into slavery by her own family and her captors sexually assault her. Guts is forced to kill the innocent son of a man he is sent to assassinate. Griffith is captured and brutally tortured and maimed to the point that he can not move or speak. Then Griffith, the man they've been fighting to save, sacrifices all his comrades to demons. All the supporting characters are brutally devoured. Griffith rapes Casca as Guts cuts off his own arm and has his eye gouged out, in order to try and stop him.] Now that is some genuinely dark and violent stuff. Look, I'm not trying to make this into a big deal or say this difference makes Berserk better and Claymore worse (the shonen crap makes Claymore worse but that's a different discussion). I'm just saying that it's an inaccurate comparison.

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