Forum - View topicINTEREST: Gundam: The Witch From Mercury Producer: Modern Teens Think Gundam Is for Old People
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GoukaRyuu
Posts: 4 |
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I have felt for awhile that it seems Sunrise would rather keep appealing to a smaller and smaller demographic of old school fans over anyone else. Almost a synecdoche of one of the big problems of the industry in general. |
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ZiharkXVI
Posts: 370 |
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Agreed. I think by "old" people they probably include me as well. Thunderbolt was good - but i think a lot of older fans arent particularly thrilled with the more recent stuff. All of my favorite series in Gundam are older. Honestly it's a bit different speed than a lot of modern anime - it'd like watching a slow epic unfold. You just don't see that anymore. Everything has to ratcheted up to exciting or dramatic 24/7. Now I really sound old. Although modern Gundam is just uninspired (my opinion). IBO just isn't interesting - and it's weird themes are random. In fact...it just gets boring as it meanders aimlessly. |
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Fluwm
 Posts: 899 |
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Sunrise has generally been alternating between pandering to old fans (Thunderbolt, Origin, Unicorn) and pandering to new fans (AGE, IBO, SEED). The root of the problem, I think, is that when the goal is primarily to attract a specific audience, then the primary goal is not to tell a good story. And I think many fans -- regardless of age -- can feel when they're being pandered to. Of course, maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. Right now the biggest genre is anime is the Isekai, which is almost exclusively about pandering to the most juvenile power fantasies imaginable; and on the other side of the planet, there is, of course, the hegemony of the MCU. |
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GoukaRyuu
Posts: 4 |
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Oh, definitely. When you can tell you are being pandered to, or worse tell you aren't the audience being pandered to, it can make you dislike things. That later one especially given that UC stuff is just pandering to a smaller and smaller demographic of Japanese otaku. I personally feel the best way forward would be to treat the Gundam the Origin as a new start off point for a kind of reboot universe for UC. It allows everyone outside of Japan to be able to get in on the ground floor and maybe you can even change up the story going forward to into new interesting directions. Your statements also kind of touches on Alan Moore's comments about the MCU recently. Basically just staying in power fantasies for your entertainment can be detrimental. |
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LastPage 3
Posts: 193 |
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Why would tailoring a story to a specific audience mean that telling a good story is not a priority? Some of the best stories around are the ones that are made for and about a specific community.
Deriding something as juvenile isn't a great way to understand what people find appealing about something. Isekai and the MCU succeed they can appeal to a wide range of people because there's something in there for everyone.
I'm a big fan of Alan Moore generally, but he can miss me with his new age Satanic Panic nonsense. Bringing fascism into it, which is actual serious problem in the world today is only worse. It's such a silly argument that people act has validity because comic books. It annoying because if people made the same argument about the trillion dollar industry of children's games like footbal, basketball, etc. it would get shouted down. When people like he and Scorcese say stuff like this, I can only take it as sour grapes |
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jdnation
Posts: 2018 |
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Well look on the bright side... Us oldies still get good stuff like Hathaway.
Part 2- WHEN? |
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Fluwm
Posts: 899 |
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This is a problem across a lot of Japanese media, I think. Or at least it's something I've noticed a lot with anime, light novels and games. So much of this media feels like it's created exclusively by otaku, exclusively for otaku, by people who only ever consume other otaku-media. They just have no frame of reference for anything else, and the resulting failure of imagination/experience is so great it almost possesses a tactile quality -- you can reach out and grab it. I am reminded of the eternal meme of people begging MCU fans to watch literally anything else. Back to Gundam, one thing I find interesting (or at least notable) is that when they try to craft new shows to bring in new, younger audiences... they very seldom bother trying anything new -- they just jam in as many tropes that were popular in the past as they can. Is it any wonder, then, that these shows don't resonate? Since we're already talking about comic book movies, kind of, it's reminiscent of the way DC (and countless other properties) have tried to mimic the MCU's success at creating large, interconnected universes... while staunchly refusing to lay down all of the (vital, necessary) groundwork that allows these things to flourish. Gundam Seed is a great example because of how easily it maps to the UC timeline (though I'd say it's also easy to spot in 00 and AGE) -- the first series was essentially a remake of the original 1979 Gundam anime, and was wildly successful... and then the very next series is just cramming in elements from basically every other UC series to date, so in-universe what took about a century to play out in UC winds up happening in about 2 years. The legacy of SEED has long been (and still is) up in the air as a result of that, I think. It's hard to figure out where to take the story from Destiny, because narrative issues aside, Destiny kinda broke the setting. Hm... maybe I'm getting off topic. Sorry. A bit medicated rn.
I kinda don't think you're arguing in good faith here, but for now I'll give ya' the benefit of doubt. Regarding narrative priorities, only one thing can ever be the top priority. Yes, appeasing fans can and should be a priority, and great media has (obviously) managed to do just that. And I think (as I thought I'd made clear before) that the chief priority for any narrative media should be telling a good story. In 1979 Sunrise financed Mobile Suit Gundam primarily as a means to sell cheap plastic toys. That's why the show exists. Why are we still talking about Gundam nearly 50 years later? Because Tomino & co., we're passionate about the project and wanted to do more than just sell colorful toys to children. They wanted to tell a good story, and they did. A half-century later, we still remember it. As for your accusation of "derision," I'm sorry if you really like comic movies and felt I was being dismissive. Personally I think it's fine to enjoy these films (just as I think it's fine to enjoy big-standard Isekai fluff). Certainly I've enjoyed more than my fair share. But that doesn't mean I'm incapable of recognizing and acknowledging the juvenile power fantasies at the heart of these stories. If you're just blithely consuming media uncritically, like a horse plodding along with blinders on, you'll never fully be able to appreciate it, or it's broader context. We're talking about media created very explicitly for children here -- literally cartoons and comic books -- and there is no more apt a descriptor for such things than "juvenile." Just because media is created for children does not mean adults cannot enjoy it too, nor does it mean that adults who do enjoy it need to be ashamed of it. |
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LastPage 3
Posts: 193 |
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Dunno why you'd think that.
I agree with you here. What I don't agree with is the implication that writing a story specifically for a certain group means that creating a good story is also not important to the writer(s)
God knows we could use more media literacy in this world. I've simply never heard media being prefaced with the descriptor "juvenile" that did not then segue into an attempt to shame people for their preferences. I apologize for reading more into your words than what you actually meant to say. |
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Fluwm
Posts: 899 |
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Sorry, man. Your post came across as a bit defensive and you misstated my point about priorities, distorting the argument. Not to the extent that I could say for certain, but enough to be reminiscent of those weird fans who can't tolerate any kind of media criticism at all. Talking about art in general can be pretty thorny, but I can say at least one thing with full confidence: good art can only exist for its own sake. By which I mean the creation of something good begins and ends with the desire to create something good. All other concerns are secondary. Not nvalid, not in the least, just of lesser import. Something like the 08th MS Team OVA series (or, hell, War in the Pocket itself) are both excellent examples of this, I think: excellent stories created by passionate people who wanted to really explore very specific scenes, yet also managed to appeal to fans. We can have both, you know: our cake, and eat it, too. But on the other end of the spectrum you get something like Gundam Unicorn, where the story is largely just an excuse to animate elaborate mech fights featuring nostalgic robots while constantly making call-backs to other, older, beloved anime. Unicorn is all about pandering to fans, and is far less interested in telling a good story in and of itself. On top of which I should say, again I think, that none of this means that fans cannot or should be able to enjoy media chiefly concerned with pandering to them. I mean, it's fine. Whatever helps you get through the day, yeah? My concern here is split between thinking that approach will seldom yield (or is fundamentally incapable of producing) media of the same quality as the classics it exists to reference, and thinking that it's not an approach that's very likely to attract new fans for whom that recognition, that nostalgia, is absent. |
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Oby
Posts: 108 |
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I disagree with your opinion there. Gundam Unicorn started as a novel. With a novel, you can't rely on "animated elaborate mech fights featuring nostalgic robots" using letters. And yet the novel did well. Weird, huh? That's coz people like the story. Even if the MC is a plain pacifist, people love characters like Marida, Zinnerman, Full Frontal & Audrey. The novel doing well and received good word of mouths was part of the reasons it got an anime adaptation. You seem to confuse "animators' love for old UC mechas when they did the animation" with "the showrunners relying on elaborate mech fights featuring nostalgic robots" when the reasonings why the mech animation looked so good was because the people behind it simply loved their work just like the people behind One Punch Man season 1's animation. Gundam Unicorn is a great example of "have the cake & eat it too" from your own words. |
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kgw
 Posts: 1085 Location: Spain, EU |
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I am older than most of you and certantly, more than the Gundam franchise.
And yes, I do agree that idea "Gundam" is mostly aimed towards an older audience (specially the latest UC releases who it seem just want the One Year War once over and over again)*. No "youngster" will be out of their way to watch Cocalus Doarn's Island (sp?)*. The Gundam name is forever linked to a an OLD series and gaudy plastic models, which, no matter what the Builders' series want us to believe, it's not a kids' hobby*. And Sunrise knows, that's why Builders and Gundam Age (with Level 5) happened. Problem is, they don't work as expected. The latter one wasn't even a success in their game and models (AFAIK). And then again, if Witch… is aimed towards a younger audience that doesn't mean it will be worse or "childish". After all, the original Gundam was born with Takara as sponsor for selling toys for kids. In any case, the important thing is that Witch from Mercury should have good ratings, and the models sell a lot. If I think it's not for me, well I'll watch ZZ or Char's all over again. * Of course, there are exceptions. |
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light turner
Posts: 142 |
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Those comments from those kids remind me of an old joke from Justice League Unlimited from 2005. "Mecha is so last year"
I often hear mecha is dying, for old folks, and similar comments. Seems to be a mindset that's been around for decades. |
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