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Psycho 101 wrote:

Teriyaki Terrier wrote:

I am sorry if this offends anyone but, just the fac that Kodoma was even created is absolutely REPLUSIVE. I've always respected you in the past Carlos, so I can somewhat understand your reasoning, but in another way, I can't.

Your descriptive reviews are usually always on the money (Kujibiki Unbalance, Gun Blaze West, several other manga series), so I am just surprized such a intellectial, brilant reviewer such as yourself would spend actual time reviewing such a title.

None the less though, you did create a well written article as usual.

So it surprised you that he's doing his job and reviewing manga titles regardless of the stigma attached to them? You and others also may want to remember he works for ANN. Who's to say it was his choice but not in fact a title given to him to review? Regardless, if you want to fault the manga as it's not your cup of tea then do so. But giving the reviewer grief for doing his job objectively is rather shallow.

You do realize I did say I somewhat understood why he reviewed that series. Maybe your right about Anime News Network wanting him to review that series. Also, if you actually read my post, I was only confused that he chose that title. Since there is no evidence that Anime News Network told him to review that title, I was a bit confused.

DigimonTamer wrote:

Wow, it still makes me laugh that a title with panty shots of a kid is considered the worst scurge on society ever and yet nobody seems to care about something as overly violent as Black Lagoon.

It's interesting, isn't it? You'd think murder, piracy, drugs, nazis, corrupt nuns, and the odd appearance of ex-child abuse victim assassins would be more cause for alarm.

Imperialkat wrote:

I've read KnJ and it really is a good story. I'd reccomend it to anyone who can stand 9-year-old panty shots (is it REALLY that big a deal?)

The manga is indeed interesting, psychologically, but I dislike the characters. Similar to School Days (the game, not so much the anime), I just can't understand their actions; I can't sympathize with them.

Akukaze wrote:

Josh7289 wrote:

And Maka is supposed to be how old?! Haha, yeah right. That reminds me of those ecchi games that have obvious 10 year olds, but they're officially listed as being 18 years old, to avoid any potential problems. Haha, what a joke.

Unlike in America there are no steadfast rules or court precedents in Japan that say all the characters in "simulated erotica" (at least the characters that do the nasty anyway) have to be 18. There are plenty of H manga and H games where they don't even beat around the bush, they say the characters are 16 or 14 or however old they're supposed to be. Of course whenever these get licensed, there's always some clever editing done. Like making the high school in Bible Black into a "college" (IIRC).

That's more or less what I was referring to...

Akukaze wrote:

Josh7289 wrote:

Teriyaki Terrier wrote:

I am sorry if this offends anyone but, just the fac that Kodoma was even created is absolutely REPLUSIVE. I've always respected you in the past Carlos, so I can somewhat understand your reasoning, but in another way, I can't.

Your descriptive reviews are usually always on the money (Kujibiki Unbalance, Gun Blaze West, several other manga series), so I am just surprized such a intellectial, brilant reviewer such as yourself would spend actual time reviewing such a title.

None the less though, you did create a well written article as usual.

I think the basic premise of Kodomo no Jikan could have made a kind of cute or heartfelt/entertaining story... But the way it was implemented, it's so obviously lolicon material, and I can't fathom how anyone could argue that it's not.

I think most people, such as myself, draw the distinction where anime/manga involving sex with little girls is lolicon and anime/manga that does not involve anyone having sex with a little girl isn't lolicon, just a little creepy. Would you call, say, Najica or Girls Bravo porn just because there's more fanservice than any one series could possibly contain? I wouldn't. So under the same vein, Kodomo no Jikan can't be lolicon.

I personally applaud Carlos for his review. It's nice to see there's another person on the Internet who is essentially neutral on the subject.

I'd still say it has loli material in it. Just because it's not in-your-face doesn't mean it's not necessarily there.

Big Hed wrote:

Josh7289 wrote:

And Maka is supposed to be how old?! Haha, yeah right. That reminds me of those ecchi games that have obvious 10 year olds, but they're officially listed as being 18 years old, to avoid any potential problems. Haha, what a joke.

I believe you are confusing "omgloli" with "flat". Maka and the rest of the technicians/weapons in Soul Eater are obviously supposed to be in their sophmore/junior year of high school (well, whatever the Shibusen equivalent of that is). If they aren't, then Tsubaki (who you'll see if you read the September issue of Yen Plus) is another one of those "really really early bloomers" that Carlo mentioned Wink

Meh, I shouldn't have ever mentioned it... Really, it's not a big deal, but I still just can't see Maka as a high schooler.

DigimonTamer wrote:

Wow, it still makes me laugh that a title with panty shots of a kid is considered the worst scurge on society ever and yet nobody seems to care about something as overly violent as Black Lagoon.

I'd venture to say that something like Black Lagoon does a lot more harm on society than something like Kodomo no Jikan. It's no wonder why america has such a high murder/crime rate since we are so accepting of a mindless gore fest like Black Lagoon.

Yep, there is no place in america for a cute/childish romance story. We need to protest so we can prevent it from being released here which will create more shelf space for more R-rated gore fests.

"Seeing panties" is not a bad thing, but "panty shots" of little kids (that are meant to be sexual) is simply not normal.

But anyway, I'm done with this subject.

Well, KnJ was purposefully made to be repulsive. And like Eminem's music or Chappelle's Show when they were coming under fire from critics, KnJ has also been able to attract an audience to this seemingly "repulsive" series. And while Carlo has seemed to come under attack for reviewing it, I think he actually put the review down pretty well, and creatively. Seeing as how we were having a civil war between members here on ANN when Seven Seas licensed the title, I'm not surprised by the reaction of posters here. But I still applaud Carlo. I've read up to volume 3 myself, and I have branded the series as humor aimed at being innocent, brash, and offensive. And that's how it will look towards a lot of people.

Considering all the controversy and the cancellation with Kodomo no Jikan, I wonder what the cost of re-licensing the series would be. Cheap or more expensive than before?

It continues to both amaze and fascinate me that any one series can be so polarizing and trigger such extreme emotions as this one. This thread hasn't completely collapsed into a nightmare flame war but it will, given time and nurtured by madness. It always does with this series.

I think I'll stick to the Black Lagoon anime. It just seems like the title works better in that format. Nothing else in the article really jumped out at me.

Imperialkat wrote:

I too was wondering about Black Lagoon. Should I skip the manga in favor of the anime?

I haven't read any of the manga, but I can tell you that it is a ton of fun to watch the anime. From what I hear, the stories (and maybe the characters?) get fleshed out more in the anime, anyway.

Add: Ditto what Richard J. said, I think Black Lagoon is naturally better animated -- although i guess you could say that about any graphic novel -- anyway.

For the record, I don't tell Carlo what to review.

I was happily surprised that Kodomo no Jikan wasn't completely bashed. Yes, it starts out as a loli fanservice fest, but the plot gets more serious around chapter... 30? ;;

I literally cannot read Haruka. I tried to read the first couple of chapters in Shojo Beat, but the flow of the plot is so disjointed that I can't understand what's going on. It must be one of the worst manga I've ever...uh, tried to read.

A couple of people have lamented that KnJ could have been a "cute, heartwarming coming-of-age story"...this misses the point. You're not supposed to be comfortable seeing a nine year-old ask her teacher to screw her(however facetious she's being). It's supposed to be a challenge to your pre-conceptions. The teacher, and by extension, the audience, can’t just say “don’t act that way”. That’s a selfish solution that only protects adults from feeling discomfort at witnessing this behavior, ignoring the child completely. Refusing to adopt some stereotypical, overly-adorable image of childhood is one of the things that makes KnJ so strong. It sounds like you’re asking the series to be some boring moe slice-of-life illustrated tranquilizer, which heaven knows Japan already has more than enough of.

Furthermore, “coming of age” even doesn’t enter into it. These kids are only nine years old. Even adolescence is still some years away. This manga is about young children and their feelings and needs, not about them growing up. KnJ is all about children with a facade of "adult-ness"(I won't say maturity). Mimi looks like an adult, Kuro talks like an adult (in the sense of her potty-mouth and refusal to be intimidated by adults), and Rin acts like an adult, but in reality, they’re all still children with childish needs. It’s up to the teacher to deal with all this, because he can’t just ignore it.

Regarding Mimi's impossible bustline, beyond providing fanservice(which I can't deny), it's there to provide an exaggerated example of a child physically maturing faster than she or the adults around her are comfortable with(which happens in reality). This must be dealt with, and “how” is the story.

And that's why I like KnJ so much; it's a great story. I can't say that about many of the manga I've read.

Mevious wrote:

The manga is indeed interesting, psychologically, but I dislike the characters. Similar to School Days (the game, not so much the anime), I just can't understand their actions; I can't sympathize with them.

We’re probably getting too deep into the subject for this thread, but I’m curious about this because I really don’t know what you’re talking about.

The children, and especially Rin, often act strangely, but I understand her actions don’t make sense exactly because she’s so young and in an important sense has no idea what she's doing.

fighterholic wrote:

Well, KnJ was purposefully made to be repulsive. And like Eminem's music or Chappelle's Show when they were coming under fire from critics, KnJ has also been able to attract an audience to this seemingly "repulsive" series.

Good analogy. Much like Eminem and Chapelle, KnJ uses extreme shock value to grab attention, but when actually paid attention to, it's revealed there's something deeper there and worth more applause.

Now, I don't condone fansubs, but anyone who wants a reason to like KnJ should watch Ep. 6 of the anime.

Josh7289 wrote:

Kyogissun wrote:

Josh7289 wrote:

There are seriously "panty flashes" of the kids in Kodomo no Jikan?

There were also panty flashes of that main character girl of Soul Eater in the first chapter (I just read it in Yen Plus). And she's what, 10? That was enough of a red flag to turn me away from that series, and Kodomo no Jikan has panty flashes from even younger kids...? That's just f'ed up.

...If you are talking about Maka, I believe she's actually 15 or 16...

But people gotta start remembering, good and bad, there are dramatic differences in culture and unpleasantly enough, the whole loli thing is just... Something apparently not that bothersome to the japanese.

As horrible as this loli thing is to quite a few people here, I can say that there is stuff MUCH worse that is considered... How should I say...

Well, no, can't even think of the word. Point is, there's worse stuff out there existing in japan in terms of content that is published/created. By no means do we need to force ourselves to accept titles like Kodomo no Jikan, but we do have to realize, there's a lot worse **** there. I think we can at least stop making it a relevant topic. =/

Of course there's a lot worse. Just saying, I don't like it in my manga. It's corrupting, you know?

And Maka is supposed to be how old?! Haha, yeah right. That reminds me of those ecchi games that have obvious 10 year olds, but they're officially listed as being 18 years old, to avoid any potential problems. Haha, what a joke.

My comment about there being things that are a lot worse is merely a representation that this is just a topic we need to let die. We get it, there's a large group of people who dislike KnJ and an equal or smaller one that DOES like it.

ANYONE who's visited the site in at least 6 months to a year knows the drama that went on with that title. We know what the controversy is for and I just think it really should become a dead topic.

And seriously, Maka is within that age range, based primarily on later chapters and such. But, the fanservice in Soul Eater REALLY does fade away later on and becomes primarily reserved for Blair and Tsubaki at times.

Hell, it's ALMOST non-existant after the "Fight to the Death" arc. I know we're discussing the issue of the whole sexuality of japan or something in this thread but let's not hook in animes who are in no way associated with this discussion, because I'm finding Soul Eater a very pleasant alternative to Bleach and trying to spread the word about it. Last thing I need is someone ruining it's appeal because of ONE questionable image. >_>;;

But I'm getting heavily off topic, so I'm gonna go now.

skyler25 wrote:

I was happily surprised that Kodomo no Jikan wasn't completely bashed. Yes, it starts out as a loli fanservice fest, but the plot gets more serious around chapter... 30? ;;

If taken a closer look at, the series does reveal some dark elements to it, which shadows what the whole nature of the series seems to be about. That's why, it should be read through. There's more to the story than just some 9 nine year old flashing her panties at a teacher. And, in a way, it explores the elements of Japanese school society at that particular level.

britannicamoore wrote:

what's wrong with needing a bra in the 3rd grade? I ... Let's just say I was an early bloomer. You can guess what came the next year.

Is that spoiler[Ricky] from spoiler[Crusher Joe]?

Whoops, different guessing game.

I think an influx of stories about 8 year olds who need bras may occur for reasons related to the fantasies of some adult men about girls who look grownup enough to get blamed for being raped/sexually assaulted /sexually harassed. Nonetheless, there are 8 year old girls who have started puberty, and I don't think that there shouldn't be stories about that (or 8 year old boys or intersexed persons going through puberty).

Zac wrote:

For the record, I don't tell Carlo what to review.

Well that being the case KNJ was obviously his own choice. So I have to repeat myself and ask why is it a big deal? Why are some people giving him grief or spouting crap about how they expect more from him etc..? He's doing his job and whether or not you people like it the title it's popular over there in Japan (from what I've been told by another poster who reads the manga anyways). So why would Carlo (which btw people does not have an S at the end of his name so I don't know why some of you insist on adding one) not review it? I would also say half the reason flame wars erupt over it is posts where people simply go "har har flame war go" but add no real discussion.

Richard J. wrote:

I think I'll stick to the Black Lagoon anime. It just seems like the title works better in that format. Nothing else in the article really jumped out at me.

The problem with the manga is it cannot capture the one element that made the anime so successful IMO. The chemistry between the characters. The show is not anything Oscar worthy or deep by any real measure. What made it so popular though, beyond Revy being hot and lots of guns everywhere, was the chemistry between the characters. How they played off each other. That aspect just seems to not be captured as well in the BL manga.

Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fronzel wrote:

Refusing to adopt some stereotypical, overly-adorable image of childhood is one of the things that makes KnJ so strong

.
It has panty shots. Of eight and nine year olds. Rin gives her teacher an erection by rubbing her ass against his crotch. You know, you're right, it isn't stereotypical. It pushes the boundaries too far, way past most non-pornographic Manga, to head in a very disturbing direction. It doesn't make it "strong", but instead very controversial and quite repulsive.

Fronzel wrote:

Furthermore, “coming of age” even doesn’t enter into it. These kids are only nine years old. Even adolescence is still some years away. This manga is about young children and their feelings and needs, not about them growing up. KnJ is all about children with a facade of "adult-ness"(I won't say maturity). Mimi looks like an adult, Kuro talks like an adult (in the sense of her potty-mouth and refusal to be intimidated by adults), and Rin acts like an adult, but in reality, they’re all still children with childish needs. It’s up to the teacher to deal with all this, because he can’t just ignore it.

If I were the teacher, I would be obligated to notify social services for possible abuse. That's the limit of what a teacher has to put up with in real life. Funny how counsellors and social workers, by and large, do not exist in Anime.

Fronzel wrote:

Regarding Mimi's impossible bustline, beyond providing fanservice(which I can't deny), it's there to provide an exaggerated example of a child physically maturing faster than she or the adults around her are comfortable with(which happens in reality). This must be dealt with, and “how” is the story.

It's fanservice first, story second. Kids that age simply do not get breasts, not that big at least. Of course, there are always strange exceptions, but most fans will see it as overt fanservice. It seems to me that people are trying to find a story, some deep hidden meaning, to justify the this title's existence in a non-erotic way.

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