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Hey, Answerman! [2009-11-20]


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Metal_Slug



Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:06 pm Reply with quote
I've been visiting ann for over a year now and I've never gotten around to making an account, but decided to today just to share my opinion with you guys! So going to the Western versus Japanese animation debate. (Although it looks like everyone is more preoccupied with the whole WWII thing, which seems to support Zac's opinion that we Americans are Nazi-obsessed. It's true.) I know that this website it obviously biased, because, you know, its an anime fansite, but STILL. The only argument that I really saw was "American animation is all kid's cartoons and Japanese cartoons are therefore more mature" My opinion? Yeah, a lot of our stuff here is generated towards children, but even still the depth can be absolutely amazing. (Not in cartoons generally, though, I'm mainly referring to Pixar, which is in my opinion, better than any Japanese animated release, including Miyazaki's stuff, which is still some of the animation out there) <------ Don't kill me, please. Even though our animation is generally more kidlike on the surface, they still have the appeal for older children, teens, adults, etc. For me, Japanese stuff is the reverse: Alot of it looks mature on the surface, but its actually pretty immature. (Although my opinion of 'immature' may be unique, I think that the panty shots, the harem stuff and the moe stuff, basically fan service or escapst or wish-fulfillment to me is one of the highest forms of immaturity. And just a lot of the ways that shows are presented, to me it seems immature. The injokes, the cliches, the character designs, etc. Not to say that there isn't mature sutff out there, but I think we forget to see that anime is a flawed medium) I think a legit point that was made was that Japan definitely has a wider base of genres. It think their comedy is horrible, though, so for humor I stick to Family Guy. So overall, I like western animation more. But I definitely still have my own favorite anime out there. (I won't give you a list, but just trust me, I wouldn't be on here if I wasn't a fan)
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jjwitdaheydiddydiddy



Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:19 pm Reply with quote
Maryohki wrote:
Erm, I'm a bit bothered by the question and answer both on the topic of Germany. In my opinion, Germany doesn't get nearly enough attention in anime, especially when compared to France. Spells are often in German and sometimes European settings look like Germany, but for the most part it's France France France, and me being someone who is completely in love with Germany, this makes me sad inside.

And the whole "touchy issue because of WWII" really, REALLY doesn't fly with me, guys. So because Japan was allied with Germany in WWII and the Nazis are infamous for having done horrible things, Japan shouldn't ever say good things about Germany? What? What's passed has passed, and Germany has bent over backwards to apologize for the Nazis. Why should they continue to be punished? Why should German people have to be ashamed of their country even today because they made a mistake (a huge one, but still) in a time of desperation? Move on, people. The war is over.


I agree with you, Maryohki. Mainly what bothers me is the fact that it wasn't all of Germany that caused WWII. I mean, if the U.S. was suddenly overtaken by Nazis, I guarantee you that there would be a significant percentage that would go along with it just in the name of self-preservation. That's just the nature of humanity. It's a shame that this country with its rich heritage and progressive people has been tarnished by a few rotten eggs.
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TheVok



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 613
Location: North York, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:17 pm Reply with quote
Enough with the American/Allies perspectives. Anime is produced first and foremost for Japanese audiences. There is no "delicate situation" with German culture to speak of.

Geez, I'm Canadian and we currently co-produce (with our CBC-bound tax dollars) 'The Tudors', a show about the folks what invaded and conquered this country ... and you're not going to hear a whisper of complaint about that. "Ohh, it glorifies those awful British!"

C'mon, we can be as progressive and as sensitive as we want, but we're ALWAYS going to have our specific cultural baggage. To deny this is just downright dishonest. Now pass me a German, Canadian, British or Japanese beer and let's all get on gettin' along.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:21 pm Reply with quote
Metal_Slug wrote:
It think their comedy is horrible, though, so for humor I stick to Family Guy.


Give me Jungle wa Itsumo Hale Nochi Guu, Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu, and Ouran High School Host Club any day over the last season of Family Guy, a.k.a. Seth McFarlene being too busy preaching his political and religious views to actually be funny.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4622
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:06 am Reply with quote
Regarding the shounen trope of not killing off any main characters, I've heard reference to Eiichiro Oda stating outright that he'll never kill off any of the main cast of One Piece, most likely because he's too much in love with his own characters to ever dream of doing such a thing. And to be perfectly honest, I'm in full agreement with them, because I love them that much too and wouldn't want to see them removed from the adventure. Smile Sure, it does lead to one or two situations where someone really should have died yet miraculously survived (spoiler[*cough* Pell *cough*]), but as a whole, that foreknowledge doesn't affect my enjoyment of the series one bit. Like many things, I chalk it up to "Because it's One Piece!" and leave it at that.

And as far as the Answerfans topic goes, I'm in almost full agreement with Deadwing's excellent first post. Both American and Japanese animation have many examples of both gems to be praised and stinkers to be mocked. As a whole, though, the comparatively massive breadth of genres, subject material, and audiences is what drew me to anime in the first place, as the Animation Age Ghetto is sadly still very much in effect in mainstream North American releases. I've often thought that, if more American shows were like Batman: TAS and Avatar, I might never have had to look to Japan for the sort of animated entertainment I wanted.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:22 am Reply with quote
KrisEllieOphi wrote:
By the way, whoever mentioned it above me.... You're entitled to your opinion, but American Dad is awful. Smile It's just Family Guy with Republicans. And Cleveland Show is Family Guy with black people. Family Guy was funny until I saw enough episodes to realize that there's really nothing there. The jokes are all entirely unrelated to the story of each episode, and after a while, it stops being funny.


Ug. No, this is false. You're perfectly entitled to dislike it if you just don't like it but don't try and use these lame, tired criticisms that people toss at Family Guy. Comparing the two is incorrect. That is not opinion. That is observable fact.

There is no 'flashback' humor in American Dad. It always has an actual plot to the episodes that usually retains the same basic focus throughout an episode. The biggest difference is that while Family Guy is usually very nihilistic and seems to take pride in just shitting all over everything in the most mean spirited way possible, American Dad is a satire. Again, it's vastly closer in style to the Simpsons than it is to Family Guy or that god awful Cleveland show.

Maryohki wrote:
This may be true, but I still find it ridiculous. Especially with the whole WWI thing. Germany did nothing wrong in WWI. Their allies were attacked, so they did their duty of defending them. That should NOT be something that causes lingering resentment. But a lot of people are stupid and just like to hate.


I absolutely agree. WWI was a ridiculous clusterfuck that was fought for no reason whatsoever. Every country bears equal blame for getting involved in that mess and not having the sense to stop it.

Quote:
@whoever made the comment about Japan making anime and manga but what has Germany done; you are an idiot. Go away. Okay, maybe not , but. Seriously? Germany has done plenty since then to make themselves a very respectable and amiable country. ALL Japan has "done for us" since then was make anime and manga. They haven't properly apologized, and many of them are still racist as ever.


Indeed. I'd also like to add though that this is an entirely asinine line of thinking to use as a basis for whether you forgive what a country has done. I mean lets just assume hypothetically that Germany did also have a fantastic animation and comic scene. "Hmm...Germany committed horrible crimes against humanity and attempted to exterminate an entire race of people. Oh what? They make cool comics? Okay then, we'll cut em some slack on the genocide." I mean seriously? What the fudge?

pparker wrote:
There were definite intentions and plans at high levels in the U.S. of literally wiping Japan clean of inhabitants.


That's an interesting theory. Funny though how it never actually happened despite winning the war. I wonder why? Nothing was stopping them. Change of heart I guess. Regardless of whether this is true, the fact that it never ended up happening makes it largely irrelevant. Also the fact remains that even if this was the plan, it was a country that started a war with the US. Not to say that justifies it but it's still a significant distinction.

TheVok wrote:
Currently co-produce (with our CBC-bound tax dollars) 'The Tudors', a show about the folks what invaded and conquered this country ... and you're not going to hear a whisper of complaint about that. "Ohh, it glorifies those awful British!"


You're immensely misstating the relationship between Canada and Britain. I mean, technically the Queen is still the head of state here.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:49 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
pparker wrote:
There were definite intentions and plans at high levels in the U.S. of literally wiping Japan clean of inhabitants.

That's an interesting theory. Funny though how it never actually happened despite winning the war.

It's not a theory, it's historical fact. Nonetheless, we didn't do it because we weren't generally insane. Only some in the State Dept and military had true genocidal motivations (Halsey, IIRC, was one of them). Actually, from a practical standpoint, the fact we won is why it wasn't done. It was assumed that we would have to kill every last Japanese citizen because Japanese propaganda, Iwo Jima and the kamikaze convinced most of our leadership that the Japanese would die to the last child before surrendering their homeland (again, the reasoning behind dropping the Bomb).

Turns out the country was on its last legs economically and structurally, and the occupation rapidly proved that the civilian Japanese were as happy as we were for the war to be over and happy to be freed from their own fascist military state into a foreign-run, relatively democratic military state for the time being. Thus, no need to annihilate the population, and the insane on our side quieted. It's not mystical.


Last edited by pparker on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ai no Kareshi



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 561
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:50 am Reply with quote
Metal_Slug wrote:
Not in cartoons generally, though, I'm mainly referring to Pixar, which is in my opinion, better than any Japanese animated release

While comparing 2D Western animation and anime is already a stretch, comparing 3D Western animation to anime is completely ridiculous to me. Not only because the mediums are so utterly different, but because to me 3D will always lose out to 2D for me. It just doesn't have that beauty.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:04 am Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
It's not a theory, it's historical fact.


I'd appreciate a source and a lot more specificity on this. Who exactly intended this? How many people?

Quote:
Nonetheless, we didn't do it because we weren't generally insane. Only some in the State Dept and military had true genocidal motivations (Halsey, IIRC, was one of them). Actually, from a practical standpoint, the fact we won is why it wasn't done. It was assumed that we would have to kill every last Japanese citizen because Japanese propaganda, Iwo Jima and the kamikaze convinced most of our leadership that the Japanese would die to the last child before surrendering their homeland (again, the reasoning behind dropping the Bomb).


You don't see a massive difference there? Despite what Nazi propaganda will tell you, the Jews were not out to destroy Germany. The Japanese were actively at war with the US and if the Japanese had continued to fight until the last man then wiping them out can hardly be called genocide. It's just a war where sadly, one side doesn't know when to quit. This is a major distinction. You're talking about people who though we would have to wipe them out entirely. That may be a questionable assumption (although with the factors you mention, it's hardly the most unbelievable of notions). However, the bottom line is that it's not even comparable to simply deciding to wipe out a whole race for no reason whatsoever. Furthermore, you'll note that those in the US had the common sense to at least wait and see. They didn't just decide the Japanese probably wouldn't stop and immediately break out the gas chambers.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:28 am Reply with quote
All is fair in love, and war. It's always the winners what get to write history afterword's. Wink
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TheVok



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 613
Location: North York, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:56 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
You're immensely misstating the relationship between Canada and Britain. I mean, technically the Queen is still the head of state here.


But how did I misstate it? Nowhere did I deny that the Queen is our head of state. On the contrary, I focused specifically on the colonization of this land into the British Commonwealth. We're agreeing more than disagreeing here.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:58 am Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:

I'd appreciate a source and a lot more specificity on this. Who exactly intended this? How many people?

I don't what better source I can give you than a book written specifically about the race factor in the Pacific War by a highly-regarded professional historian. If you are that interested, read it. It really is fascinating.

ikillchicken wrote:
You don't see a massive difference there?

Geez, it's an anime forum. I really wasn't intending to get into a debate on the history of WW II. Yes, genocide might not be the right term for the "extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group" if it is done in the context of war from the perspective of defense... pretty much, though we took the offensive relatively quickly in the Pacific War. So, you're right. In any case, of course there is a massive difference between what President Roosevelt intended and what Hitler intended. I never indicated otherwise. My only intention was to point out that, as others have done, in details WW II wasn't a simple case of white and black hats.

Racial attitudes in the U.S. were very different at that time. The "white man's burden" still ruled racial theory. Anthropology and, for the most part, social science, agreed with theories and "evidence" supporting the genetic inferiority of the non-white races (they were "infants" in evolutionary terms). The Japanese were characterized as subhuman savages who had initiated an entirely unprovoked and unjustified war against the U.S. (not entirely true). It's not a stretch to imagine that a faction existed in the U.S. having few if any qualms about exterminating the Japanese.

Mohawk52 wrote:
All is fair in love, and war. It's always the winners what get to write history afterword's.

There... that's the point.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:48 am Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
In any case, of course there is a massive difference between what President Roosevelt intended and what Hitler intended. I never indicated otherwise. My only intention was to point out that, as others have done, in details WW II wasn't a simple case of white and black hats.


Okay well firstly, if by 'others' you mean Pandadice then no. You need to read his comments again because that's exactly what he said. We did to the Japanese what the Germans did to the Jews. That was his claim.

Secondly, I've made it explicitly clear from the start that I'm not trying to paint it as black and white. For that reason, you can probably imagine why what you're doing doesn't come across as just pointing that out at all because that would be redundant and make no sense. I see now what you're trying to say but it's just splitting hairs and/or stating what I've already agreed.

pparker wrote:
Geez, it's an anime forum. I really wasn't intending to get into a debate on the history of WW II.


Oh come on. Don't play the 'it's just an anime forum' card. You were perfectly happy to dive into this stuff a couple posts ago.

Quote:
Quote:
All is fair in love, and war. It's always the winners what get to write history afterword's.

There... that's the point.


Actually, that's not a point. It's a catchy little phrase that only serves to vaguely imply that I'm somehow wrong without specifically dealing with anything I've said. It also makes significantly less sense when you actually thing about it.

TheVok wrote:
But how did I misstate it? Nowhere did I deny that the Queen is our head of state. On the contrary, I focused specifically on the colonization of this land into the British Commonwealth. We're agreeing more than disagreeing here.


No were really not. You're suggesting that there is some sort of of general sentiment of resentment in Canada towards Britain or rather, there ought to be or could be based on our history. I really think that's totally erroneous. In fact, I don't know what you would even base that on. Unless you're referring to French Canadians only but then that's only a percentage of the population and hardly represents some even semi-general consensus.
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DmonHiro





PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:02 pm Reply with quote
German does sound cool for magic. No real clue WHY, but it does. Or the latin in Mahou Sensei Negima. What I don't get is...how come they can't get english right, but german and latin...are almost perfect.

Last edited by DmonHiro on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:03 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
Racial attitudes in the U.S. were very different at that time. The "white man's burden" still ruled racial theory. Anthropology and, for the most part, social science, agreed with theories and "evidence" supporting the genetic inferiority of the non-white races (they were "infants" in evolutionary terms). The Japanese were characterized as subhuman savages who had initiated an entirely unprovoked and unjustified war against the U.S. (not entirely true). It's not a stretch to imagine that a faction existed in the U.S. having few if any qualms about exterminating the Japanese.
So what has changed since then? Can anyone say that that is no longer the case, that racism has been erradicated from the human mind set now? If anything its seems to be on the rise again in these troubled times. Do the Japanese not still think of most "white caucasian" geijin as "hairy barbarians", as an example? I can tell you that even on our little island; the sense of "tribalism", English, Welsh, Scott, Irish, even down to Englishness, North, South, Cornish, Black Country , Yorhshire, Manx, Geordie, Norfolk, Wessex, right down to the City of London, Mayfair posh, White Chapel Cockney, Brixton immigrants, still bubbles to the surface. The political gains of our own ultra right wing racist party, the British National Party (BNP) is a good indication of that. In all wars since the beginning of homo sapian was about the aggressor "eliminating" the victims of their aggression. Whats the ultimate goal of the Taliban? Wink
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