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Answerman - Is Anime Fandom More Dysfunctional Than In The Past?

These days I feel that the comic and cartoon fanbases are actually worse off. They may not deal with bizarre topics the way anime does, but company bias has caused their conversations to get unnecessarily political and by extension, petty and brutal. For example, DC fans routinely claim Marvel is run by Shonen Jump Weeklies and try to get people to boycott their comics, while the Steven Universe fanbase intentionally tried to make a fan artist commit suicide just because she drew a character thinner than she usually is.

I don't think that's true. If every Japanese Otaku created fan works there would be thousands more doujinshi on the net. The industry is supported by Japanese fans who buy DVDs and BDs (thousands), manga (tens of thousands) and official merch (I have no idea how well they sell, but figures are expensive). Fan works are great, but they're not the measure of a country's fan population.

But even if that were the measure, American fans do make fanfiction, fan art and fan comics. Even at the professional level, many American content creators today have obviously been inspired and influenced by anime and manga. For example, I don't know how anyone can look at American cartoons like Steven Universe and Star vs. The Forces of Evil and not come to the conclusion that Rebecca Sugar and Daron Nefcy, respectively, were influenced by anime.

The English speaking fandom has some issues in my opinion. I have the impression that they an excessively narrow understanding of Japanese culture in the sense that they view their animation as if it were disconnected from the rest of Japanese culture instead of being a part of it.

Also, I have noticed that English speaking fans tend to project their own local conditions into Japanese culture: for instance, Justin refers to the NA fandom as "otaku world" however the NA fandom is another very different world from the Japanese fandom (which is much more hardcore: a true Japanese fans would have already drawn manga parodies of their favorite stuff, while 99.99% of Western fans never make anything, just sit on their couch and watch TV). A Western anime fan who watches anime after work is much more like a Japanese salaryman who reads manga while commuting to work rather than a Japanese otaku who is actively creating stuff..

belvadeer wrote:

Subs vs dubs is an eternal war. I doubt it will ever end; not until we all speak some homogenized super language anyway.

Is it, though? I'm a relative newbie to this fandom, having been in it for less than 10 years, and honestly I can't remember ever seeing a subs vs. dubs argument that wasn't clearly tongue-in-cheek. What little remains of it is an artifact of the VHS era, where you had to buy them separately. These days, with the hybrid chimera of Crunchimationroll and both subs and dubs on virtually all physical releases, there's no real "side" to take anymore. We still have plenty of pointless arguments, of course, but that one seems to have mostly disappeared.

Ironic that only one of the group of about 10 or so toxic ANN commenters (who seem to have a perpetual pass from mods) have commented on this thread so far...

kotomikun wrote:

Is it, though? I'm a relative newbie to this fandom, having been in it for less than 10 years, and honestly I can't remember ever seeing a subs vs. dubs argument that wasn't clearly tongue-in-cheek. What little remains of it is an artifact of the VHS era, where you had to buy them separately. These days, with the hybrid chimera of Crunchimationroll and both subs and dubs on virtually all physical releases, there's no real "side" to take anymore. We still have plenty of pointless arguments, of course, but that one seems to have mostly disappeared.

I don't think I've seen any arguments about that topic that in a while. Either that, or I've gotten pretty good at ignoring them.

I don't think I've seen any arguments about that topic that in a while. Either that, or I've gotten pretty good at ignoring them. Like you said, the relatively easy access to both makes it pretty easy for both camps to just enjoy their preference and leave others alone. The more prominent examples of really bad dubs are old enough that newer fans probably haven't seen them, or were done by companies that have either improved since then or aren't active anymore. About the only real argument I see about it, and it's fairly rare at this point, is the old, "Why should I have to pay more for a dub I don't want." But that one seems to get brushed off as more of an excuse not to buy at all.

Agent355 wrote:

I don't think that's true. If every Japanese Otaku created fan works there would be thousands more doujinshi on the net. The industry is supported by Japanese fans who buy DVDs and BDs (thousands), manga (tens of thousands) and official merch (I have no idea how well they sell, but figures are expensive). Fan works are great, but they're not the measure of a country's fan population.

Assuming you mean that literally, there actually are thousands more doujinshi than whats on the net. Most of them never get scanned. You might be lucky to find them on second hand import shops, but most are essentially convention-only. I know my collection for certain series dwarfs whats available on the main English doujin websites because I physically collect them.

Quote:

But even if that were the measure, American fans do make fanfiction, fan art and fan comics. Even at the professional level, many American content creators today have obviously been inspired and influenced by anime and manga. For example, I don't know how anyone can look at American cartoons like Steven Universe and Star vs. The Forces of Evil and not come to the conclusion that Rebecca Sugar and Daron Nefcy, respectively, were influenced by anime.

. Most cartoons do have anime fans working on them, but I think that poster meant within the industry itself. Making an American cartoon that mimics anime isn't the same as a doujin artist becoming a mangaka or designer within the industry. Unless you happen to be the one in a million like Thomas Romain, but even he was in the animation industry prior to that.

Western fan content can't really reach Japanese levels due to copyright laws being much more stict here, and the fandom for stuff being much more niche. And to be blunt, most of it pales in comparison if we're talking quality anyway.

-Stuart Smith

a true Japanese fans would have already drawn manga parodies of their favorite stuff, while 99.99% of Western fans never make anything, just sit on their couch and watch TV

Also, I have noticed that English speaking fans tend to project their own local conditions into Japanese culture: for instance, Justin refers to the NA fandom as "otaku world" however the NA fandom is another very different world from the Japanese fandom (which is much more hardcore: a true Japanese fans would have already drawn manga parodies of their favorite stuff, while 99.99% of Western fans never make anything, just sit on their couch and watch TV). A Western anime fan who watches anime after work is much more like a Japanese salaryman who reads manga while commuting to work rather than a Japanese otaku who is actively creating stuff.

...

I think that gatekeeping is good since to one consider him/herself a true fan of something one has to have some experience in field. That is, just watching a couple of series doesn't make one an "anime fan" since most people from my country have watched mainstream stuff like Dragonball or Naruto (among the younger ones). In other cultures one is only a fan of something if they are seriously into it.

A "fan" is defined by their own interest, not their experience.

I never did use the term "good old days" as I don't believe it was ever good and because, much like the anime itself these days, you can just so easily turn the shows off or tune the fandom out which you honestly couldn't do in the past. Example: You couldn't escape Evangelion in the 90s

If you're referring to that Comics Gate thing, it's not really a DC thing. People complain about Marvel because they like Marvel characters and dislike seeing them ruined like that.

There is a lot of manga parodies, but that doesn't mean every "true" (?) Japanese fan makes parodies or that Western fans almost never make parodies. Jose Cruz mentioned nothing about the industry itself, and his statement supported the idea that Japanese fandom is niche--he seems to be arguing for gate keeping.

In the 1990s, anime fandoms were rather toxic for sometimes going very overboard with their anime to be "authentic and 100% pure" from Japan.....

As for elitists, they'll always be around. Do your anime fandom community a favor and kick out any asshat who begs for anime being like "the good old days." They always make things awful and insufferable, and if anything they'll be the reason why anime dies out.

Another old timer here and yeah I agree with Justin. There might be more bad behavior today but not because people are behaving more badly there are simply way more people.

In the 90s there were only so many people on the internet and only so many of those people were anime fans. Now, anyone with a smart phone has the net and anime is much more visible to the general public.

It cuts both ways. The jerks are more noticeable because of the Internet, but that also empowers people to speak up about it. People are afraid to say anything if they think they're going to be the only one doing it, but the more people who are around, the more likely it becomes that someone will have the courage to do so, and once that happens you get a deluge of, "Yeah, that's right. We don't have to put up with this crap."

Zero question that it's gotten better over the time I've been in the community, and I'm not even that old (Toonami kid, kind of took a break during the piracy years).

Am I seriously the only one to remember yaoi paddles? It used to be that sexual assaults with weapons were taken for granted and seen as an inevitable problem at conventions and other large fan gatherings. That the worst we have now is photography is a huge testament to how much things have improved.

There's a lot more content that's available nowadays which has only fueled the toxicity. I remember back in the early 90s most "casuals" - like myself - at absolute best simply argued against what was actually out at the time, which were "I like this more than this" type conversations. At best the US got less than 20 titles a year which didn't give a lot of content. Now it seems like we get double that amount of material just in one season. I honestly don't even remember much sub/dub debate simply because most everyone I knew watched dubbed material due to it's lower purchase cost. Dubbed VHS tapes were often $10 and sometimes more cheaper a tape ($20-$25 for dub as opposed to $30-$35 for sub), which if you were budget conscious about your anime you took that into consideration.

It BEWILDERS me that there are some folks out there consuming anime who are, to be blunt, best described as card carrying racists. That was definitely the single worst experience I had dealing with anybody in my comments section. Beyond that, there were some irritations, but nothing I couldn't see coming before I even set up the channel. Kids who have seen three shows who think their knowledge is better than mine. Accusations that I hadn't done research simply because I didn't mention an incidental detail about a show in the course of a review. Snotty, aggressive remarks that do little but state the opinion of the person posting them and dare anyone to disagree. It all got so tiresome that I eventually decided I'd simply delete anything I didn't like, no questions asked. Life is too short.

Respectfully, that's all nonsense. People can call themselves a fan the INSTANT they realise they enjoy something and want to spend more time with it. That's all it takes. Snobbery and elitism, gatekeeping - call it what you will. It's entirely negative. It's the foundation that divisions get built upon.

Just, you know, enjoy your Japanese cartoons and don't be complete donkeys to each other. How hard is that, really?

IDon't argue your point. You've already made it. Just take an interest in the person disagreeing with you. If they seem heated, apologize to them for upsetting them. They often times start showing their humanity afterward. And if they don't, lay it to rest and stop interacting with them. Works miracles.

Also, I have noticed that English speaking fans tend to project their own local conditions into Japanese culture: for instance, Justin refers to the NA fandom as "otaku world" however the NA fandom is another very different world from the Japanese fandom (which is much more hardcore: a true Japanese fans would have already drawn manga parodies of their favorite stuff, while 99.99% of Western fans never make anything, just sit on their couch and watch TV). A Western anime fan who watches anime after work is much more like a Japanese salaryman who reads manga while commuting to work rather than a Japanese otaku who is actively creating stuff.

I think that gatekeeping is good since to one consider him/herself a true fan of something one has to have some experience in field. That is, just watching a couple of series doesn't make one an "anime fan" since most people from my country have watched mainstream stuff like Dragonball or Naruto (among the younger ones). In other cultures one is only a fan of something if they are seriously into it.

No. There are no 'real' gates, there is no benefit to putting artificial and arbitrary requirements on someone taking part in a discussion or calling themselves a fan of something. Telling people they can't take part in a conversation if they haven't seen X number of Y genre (or Z franchise within Y genre) doesn't increase the quality of the conversation, and it helps no-one. If some participants in the discussion have seen more than others, they have an opportunity to guide the others towards shows they might not otherwise have thought to watch or even heard of. That will do more for getting a fan who hasn't seen as much up to speed than telling them "bugger off, you haven't watched enough to be worthy of speaking to us" ever will.

Is it, though? I'm a relative newbie to this fandom, having been in it for less than 10 years, and honestly I can't remember ever seeing a subs vs. dubs argument that wasn't clearly tongue-in-cheek. What little remains of it is an artifact of the VHS era, where you had to buy them separately. These days, with the hybrid chimera of Crunchimationroll and both subs and dubs on virtually all physical releases, there's no real "side" to take anymore. We still have plenty of pointless arguments, of course, but that one seems to have mostly disappeared.

These days I feel that the comic and cartoon fanbases are actually worse off. They may not deal with bizarre topics the way anime does, but company bias has caused their conversations to get unnecessarily political and by extension, petty and brutal. For example, DC fans routinely claim Marvel is run by Shonen Jump Weeklies and try to get people to boycott their comics, while the Steven Universe fanbase intentionally tried to make a fan artist commit suicide just because she drew a character thinner than she usually is.

More people watch anime now, way more anime get´s made to talk about and it became easier to communicate than ever. So at least the tempest in the teapot had to become louder. I wonder when we will get our very own Gamergate... The building blocks are all there.

Oh they're still here and there. They have lessened but part of that is because we've moved on from the old core hot button topics to new ones. Sub vs dub, the moe craze, BL and shota debates, a lot of the Gundam wars, and even to a lesser extent the loli debates have dropped more to wayside in favor of all the new political and social topics that flame wars are waged over. In hip speak, sub vs dub is so last week. *shrugs shoulders* When they do pop up they definitely don't garner the same ire and zeal they once did.

I was specifically responding to this claim:

Jose Cruz wrote:

a true Japanese fans would have already drawn manga parodies of their favorite stuff, while 99.99% of Western fans never make anything, just sit on their couch and watch TV

There is a lot of manga parodies, but that doesn't mean every "true" (?) Japanese fan makes parodies or that Western fans almost never make parodies. Jose Cruz mentioned nothing about the industry itself, and his statement supported the idea that Japanese fandom is niche--he seems to be arguing for gate keeping.

To me, aggressive gatekeeping isn't just foolish--it's counterproductive. You want to support new blood in any hobby--they're the ones whose enthusiasm will help keep the medium alive long after others have left.

In the 1990s, anime fandoms were rather toxic for sometimes going very overboard with their anime to be "authentic and 100% pure" from Japan. How so? Apollo Smile. Granted, the stuff she put out was rather a grab for attention, but if anything she was thrashed and trashed badly by the anime fandom in the 1990s. It also didn't help that plenty of the gatekeeping back then revolved around badmouthing Apollo Smile and sometimes going as far as getting her stuff autographed and then throwing it away for a laugh.

A good idea I picked up long ago is that when anyone starts tossing the term "true fan" around it's time to ignore that opinion and not give it any weight. Anyone who uses that term is probably about to say something closed minded to some extent and/or judge others by their own personal lofty standards. It's really just a thinly veiled way to insult others that person deem lesser than them in whatever fandom it is. Considering the source here and the topic it's not surprising though, nor the first time to be posted either. I have to echo Juno016's opinion.