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Top Gun wrote:

hentai in the 80s and 90s usually looked far better than current offerings. (Much of it had coherent plots too!)

I know, and I'm very sad about that. The current hentai industry is an empty shell. Someone mentioned Bible Black which had a good plot AND great animation. They don't make them like that anymore. Hell, even when the animation was trash, you'd sometimes still get a good story.

Let's avoid descending into a tit-for-tat culture war.

Top Gun wrote:

If you are looking for animation, hentai in the 80s and 90s usually looked far better than current offerings. (Much of it had coherent plots too!)

I'm really glad someone said it. Plus, recent hentai has gotten hardcore, over-the-top, and depraved to a ridiculous extent. I'm not even sure if some older hentai titles such as Class Reunion and End of Summer even still qualify as hentai when there are TV ecchi on the same level or even slightly more explicit than them. (Neither one of them has anything particularly kinky or any blurred genitalia, just a fairly gentle romance with some R-rated sex scenes.)

CatSword wrote:

Top Gun wrote:

If you are looking for animation, hentai in the 80s and 90s usually looked far better than current offerings. (Much of it had coherent plots too!)

I'm really glad someone said it. Plus, recent hentai has gotten hardcore, over-the-top, and depraved to a ridiculous extent. I'm not even sure if some older hentai titles such as Class Reunion and End of Summer even still qualify as hentai when there are TV ecchi on the same level or even slightly more explicit than them. (Neither one of them has anything particularly kinky or any blurred genitalia, just a fairly gentle romance with some R-rated sex scenes.)

This but one still has a soft spot for Black Lillith.

Last edited by FLCLGainax on Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:17 am; edited 3 times in total

I guess watching quite a bit of Ranma 1/2 and Tenchi Muyo early in my fandom made me more tolerant of fanservice shows, as long as there was a decent story. The nudity in those shows never bothered me. I could never stand ultra-violent gore fests like Ninja Scroll, as they seemed just to be shock films. If the violence has a purpose and isn't just there for shock value, that's something else.

CatSword wrote:

One of the most prevalent examples of this is Toonami. They've played ultra-violent anime such as Black Lagoon, Deadman Wonderland, and Hellsing Ultimate completely uncensored for violence, but blurring nudity and bleeping F-bombs.

I think that may have something to do with the demographic watching the block and that advertisers are more squeamish about nudity and language. Syfy Channel was the same way back when they had their AniMonday block.

jutsuri wrote:

(snip)I know anime and manga have been pretty popular in France for a while, are French anime fans less prone to pearl clutching at the sight of a boob? I would assume so, but you know what they say about assuming...

Maybe it has something to do with it being portrayed more in their art. I remember the public museums in Paris having more statues of nude figures than what one would encounter in a lot of American museums.

I think with blood and violence, it's just blood and guts. So people are like "Who really cares?" while I think nudity can be more shocking to someone. I personally get gross out more by fan service of younger characters that are kids in anime than blood and gore because making a kid more sexy is more disturbing to me in my opinion.

Also people who are into horror, action movies and grindhouse cinema are not into real life violence or do they generally have the DESIRE to do so.

Errinundra wrote:

Let's avoid descending into a tit-for-tat culture war.

Don't forget the, "Its all religions fault," because quite honestly it's not. I know plenty of non-religious people who don't like sex or violence in their media. You can't use them as blame, even though I see many of you are doing just that.

Joshua Zarate wrote:

@ iatheia - That’s an interesting declaration, where did it come from, because it surely can’t be from recent seasons of anime where there appears to be a decrease of that genre’s appearance, not excessive. Thats also quite the assumption you’re projecting on here. I enjoy ecchi series and I interact with women on a daily basis.

I honestly didn’t expect this thread to turn into an opportunity for people who aren’t fans to bash on the ecchi genre/fanservice shows. Ecchi can have interesting stories and fun characters to see onscreen that can also have solid characterization. Saying they’re universally bad at both things isn’t quite inaccurate based on the amount of titles I’ve seen in the genre. The writing isn’t the best ever, but it doesn’t need to be to still be engaging depending on how the show is executed. Just because one doesn’t enjoy a show like that as dinner doesn’t mean they speak for everyone and factually call it a painful experience for everyone. There do exist some not-so-great habits in some of these shows, definitely, but I still think the genre deserves to exist in the wide medium that is anime.

I wouldn't say absolutely all ecchi is terrible, I for one find Queen's Blade to be hilarious. It is trash, but at least it is self-aware trash. Nonetheless, the vast majority of what we do have on the table is pretty soulless and dehumanizing to women involved, and that was my point.

It is part of a larger issue of double standards against animation in general versus live action. Just test how quickly someone will watch GoT, Westworld, or Orange is the New Black with a straight face, then act like you've committed a crime if you show them anything animated with a hint of boobies.

Top Gun wrote:

As for why I don't like fanservice-heavy series, I think the reason is twofold. First of all is quality. To be frank, the vast majority of fanservice titles are hideously immature. They're made with this incredibly juvenile understanding of sexuality, designed to appeal mostly to horny teenagers or lonely virgin otaku (and hey, guess who's buying them!). They rely on rock-hard-stale tropes like the painful boy-accidentally-falls-on-girl-and-gets-a-handful nonsense. (Seriously, who the hell still thinks that's funny in the year 2018?) They almost universally feature terrible writing and characterization, because let's face it, the people into them don't really care anyway. I have nothing at all against a bit of cheesecake in an otherwise well-made show--hell, I genuinely welcome it--but when the cheesecake IS the show, it's just a painful experience.

The same can be said for more violent Anime: They're overdoing the violence so much it gets ridicolous. There's no reason at all to actually show the gore in great detail, they're just doing it to appeal to "edgy" teenagers or horror-junkies. I tend to prefer the "censored" TV-version of Anime, because they show you just enough, even if they cover the whole scene with shadows *cough*TokyoGhoul*cough*.

Just because it doesn't appeal to your tastes doesn't mean it's horrible. If you actually enjoy the genre to a somewhat degree, you'll get a better understanding of what makes a fanservice-heavy show good, and it's usually not the fanservice itself, but the comedy and romantic development between the main character and his/her partner. If you dislike the comedy, fine, but there's obviously a big enough market for it for Japan to release dozens of them every season, as they're huge fans of slapstick humor.

There's obvious cut-and-paste characters in other genres as well, especially shounen, but people tend to ignore that just because it's not ecchi.

tits are great and all but I personally could do without the omnipresent humiliation fetish and the pedophilia and the Character That Wants to Bone Their Sibling, who it seems is now mandated to appear in every show irrespective of genre

Anime is a lot tamer compare to what they put out in the past. Akame Ga Kill is a Nick Jr show compare to Genocyber. Heck even Devilman Crybaby felt tamer than the old OVAs if you ask me. Same goes with the 2005 Guyver compare to the 1989 OVA series.

Though I'm a Christian, I do admit that some of them give a bad name to the faith with the wringing their hands over stuff. As someone else said, though, it is not just religious folks. There are also religious folks of all kinds and non-religious folks that go hand-wringing.

When I got back from Iraq, I struggled with, and still do, some of the violence on shows and in books. I have gotten better at it and don't flip out about violence anymore, though I still can't watch much of it. I only mention my past for context, not status or thinking it makes me special at all. I was really struggling with violent depictions even more so a few years back, and then some folks I know were into the whole "Game of Thrones is porn" bullcrap. I actually pointed argued and asked why violence was not somehow wrong to show but nudity or sex was, and proceeded to defend the latter. Nowadays I defend both depending on context. The point of all of this is to say that no one really gave me an answer other than that "no one will copy it" or some such stuff. To say that I got a frosty response on my suggestion that violence should be viewed (if one is getting religious and/or moralistic or what not) as negative too if nudity/sex is going to be, would be an understatement.

I have dealt with the whole GoT is "porn" or "rape", and they generally don't seem to think anything of violence, but a nipple? The world is coming to an EEEEENNNNDDDD!

iatheia wrote:

Experience, lots and lots of experience, including from men like you who feel the need to loudly shout "not all men" whenever a woman dares to express a tired opinion.

You attack and dehumanize people ("The only people who would find something like that titilating are those who have never interacted with a woman in their life."), and it should be just accepted without any reaction?

What people are titillated by is a property of their bodies (including the brain), which (for most people at least) isn't a result of any voluntary choice. As a queer person you likely understand this very well, so what is blinding you?

iatheia wrote:

dehumanizing to women involved

I think it's a mistake to "humanize" anime characters, as they are not conscious, do not have feelings, etc.

I disagree with adult anime fans giving nudity a pass if there is a good plot underneath; just take a look at gits and all the complaints about kusnagi adn ehr outfit or lack of thereof.

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