Forum - View topicHey, Answerman: On Strike!
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Seif
 Posts: 457 |
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Don't you mean shounen ai? Shoutacon is the male equivalent to lolicon. |
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thedragon
 Posts: 38 Location: Ottawa, Ontario |
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CCsYueh this is what I was talking about, not the yaoi part.
In the article Zac says:
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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No, I included shotacon in there as well as shonen-ai, which I put in under as boys love. But shotacon is equivalent to lolicon, yes. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Britannica-
(If I can spell your name right. Yeah, I have typing issues) It's more a wording issue maybe. When Tokyo Pop intro'd their "Authentic manga" line & brought over Fake & Gravi, I was a tad put off at the idea of reading stories about guys in love because, like a lot of other Americans, I sort of viewed it as gay porn/gay audience stuff even though I'd always supported gay issues. Overall general American manga/anime fans do see it as gay stories & even porn, but when I heard the explaination by the gal at Be Beautiful (wife of the company pres, as I recall), it made sense. As a gal I can buy a men's T-shirt to wear. It's cut for a guy, but I can wear it. As someone who wears a ladies size 11 shoe, I will resort to a guy's shoe (particularly in tenny runners) rather than search for that hard-to-find size 11 (which is why I love Sas for my work shoes-they have those 11's). On the other side, a guy can also do these things, though it'd probably be more likely to raise eyebrows. (Although I recall when I read in the 80's Rod Stewart allegedly liked to wear ladies panties on stage because they gave him a more snug fit, I didn't think anything of it. It did make sense). My wearing a guy's shoe doesn't make them women's shoes. Guys reading yaoi doesn't change the fact it runs in magazines aimed at gals in Japan. The ads are for things that appeal to gals. There's a huge focus on the VA's which I don't see in stuff like Shonen Jump. It's sort of Americans assuming it's gay just because it's 2 guys, yet we accept it's ok to see spreads of 2 gals together in porn aimed at guys (I've seen them in Hustler) & know it's aimed at the hetero audience & it's not gay. And it is also the same powderkeg of stuff like Nymphet. Yaoi is only a mom going thru her daughter's room & raising a fuss at church over this "gay porn" away from controversy just as Nymphet would have been on the child porn side. THe average American parent doesn't seem to have all that much reason to take stuff out of context. Granted, yaoi does have the thin veil that the companies are trying very hard to over-grade the titles(why else does a manga where the boys only kiss deserve a 16+ age rating?), but just the content alone should be good for a radio or tv preacher with nothing else to attack at the moment. With the focus on protecting our children from child molestors that America has(not to suggest we actually care more about our children-that's a whole other argument), Nymphet would also be ripe for it. Dragon- Yeah, that's a typical guy response to all things involving 2 guys together. THe radio show I listen to is always going on about that (KGB-DSC)- It's 2 guys & 1 gal plus a support cast of a couple more guys & a couple more gals. The guys are always talking about the guy issues-how Chainsaw, the sports guy, is very touchy/feely & it makes the other guys a tad uncomfortable--the lockerroom snap the towel stuff or butt whacks. That movie moment (usually in comedy) where the guys think they're going to die or something so they're hugging & screaming, then it's ok & there's that embarassed separate/throat clearing/act casual. Or where there's a gay character & the straight character gets all bent over the idea the gay guy is interested in him when that's the furthest thing from the situation. American guys seem more worried about the image of gayness than gals seem to be. That whole manhood image thing. American women seem to not have as big an issue with 2 gals together (once one moves out of the religious/it's a sin stuff) Of course Japan apparently believes we're more open to homosexuality than they are so it's really perspective. I always thought they were more open considering how one sees it in anime(even in shonen stuff). Europe also seems more open, but I don't know. I don't live there, so maybe the guys there are also squishy with 2 guys hanging together & not worrying whether someone might perceive them as homosexual or not. |
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Scaramanga
Posts: 134 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Uhh Yaoi refers to the content not the intended audience. I'm assuming you would agree that explicit scenes of two guys having sex is gay porn. Whether gay men or straight women are the target audience is irrelevant. EDIT:
You DO know that the quote Dragon used from Zac was referring to KnJ right, NOT yaoi. Yaoi doesn't make his skin crawl (well maybe it does, but probably not because of the gay guy lovin' issue,) lolicon does. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16939 |
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You're absolutely right. However, you just proved yourself wrong. The content of yaoi is man/man love. Not man/man sex, which would be porn. So yes it does refer to the intended content, but that intended content is not sex therefor it is not porn. You can have yaoi or yuri hentai which would be the porn aspect, but either form would first and foremost be hentai, not yaoi or yuri. The yaoi or yuri aspect at that point would just be a sub-genre of the hentai genre itself. |
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Seif
Posts: 457 |
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From Wikipedia
Like I said, yaoi can be used as a catch-all term for the entire genre, but when you get down to the specifics yaoi reservered for the explicit material (ie porn) while Shounen Ai refers to the ones with just man/man romance. Heck, look at ANN's encyclopedic definition.
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rocklobster
 Posts: 200 Location: Planet Claire |
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I like Yoko Kanno best myself. Kanno does a great job at picking a unique style for every show she's done.
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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I'll admit that I watched porn underage. Via the internet. But I couldn't purchase it or anything because they had a strict 18 and over policy. I know that with DVDs this is the case a lot- they have actions in place to stop kids from buying it. Is there no place out there that has a section for adult books? A comic shop near me use to have that section but they closed. I havem't quite seen one at B&N or Borders (altough i'd argue some of the african american fiction on the shelves is porn and shouldn't be labeled for teens) thats in regard to the nymphet issue. As for yaoi...i've been reading stories since I was 15. The non- anime fanfic version called Slash. I knew hundreds of other fanfic writers/readers and they mostly were underage although there were many adult women and men. I think over the years since then with shows like Queer as Folk and The L Word on tv- heck even Will and Grace people have ligthened up some. Thats not going to stop everyone or make them have a sudden change of heart but it seems like those who quote the Bible and make a living spreading it to people should be able to understand the concept of love thy negihbor. No matter who they take to bed with them. A similar situation as i outlined above happened at my church to two women and their son. I can't go back there when the pastor is such a hypocrite. And just call me Brit. It's much easier. |
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Cowboy Cadenza
Posts: 243 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY |
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Actually...that's pretty much exactly what yaoi is.
This is what I've been saying for a while now, but apparently yaoi fans have it in their minds that this is not the case. This distinction makes everything so much easier, though. Let me just also state that the words "shounen-ai" is directly translated as "boy's love." That is the meaning of those Japanese words exactly. The term for YAOI is translated as "no climax, no resolution, no meaning." It refers to sexually explicit "boy's love" material. Edit: Seems like I'm pretty much just repeating what Seif has already said. Woo.
I don't even see how this has anything to do with whether you're liberal or conservative...child pornography is vile regardless...
I haven't read the manga and I'm not a huge fan of the movies, so I was mostly referring to the TV series. I don't see how you can watch 2nd Gig in full and not think of her as human. It's beyond me. But to each their own, I suppose. EDIT: Beaten to the punch on this one, too. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Sorry. I thought Dragon was jumping me about yaoi also. Now I re-read it, I see the diff. I'm so used to guys over-reacting to yaoi, insulting guys who admit to liking it, I don't really even pay that much attention to guy reactions to it. It's not made for them. They can like it if they want, but their opinion isn't really pertinent to the genre in general. In the answer Zac seemed to be expecting fallout from yaoi & thus Nymphet may or may not cause an issue. I'd say Nymphet/very strong loli might be more likely to raise a fuss just because American Parents do freak more over issues involving younger (perceived more innocent) than the overall gay issues. Yeah, it is slowly improving for gays as Brit said (more acceptance), though they still have a ways to go & their issues may ultimately be more difficult than the usual race issues since they can be damned in the name of the prominent religion in the country In Japan yaoi apparently isn't even used all that much any longer-it's all BL pretty much (And Cowboy, it is the initials BL used. THe covers of all the BL anthologies I subscribe to do say "BL", not shonen ai which allegedly hasn't been used since around the days of Gravitation there.) You'll note that Wikipedia entry states "Western fans". On the other hand, while it's not that bad typing BL, I don't use the term in conversation--I use yaoi since BL sort of sounds weird. In those anthologies you do see the hardcore stuff running in the same zines with the softer stuff--Is it Crimson Spell that runs in the same zine as Tyrant Falls in Love? I forget. It might be one is in Chara & the other in Chara Selection. (It almost seems orchestrated-- as if authors X,Y, Z are told to go all out one month while the next month 3 or 4 other authors run sex scenes.) Point is in Japan they don't separate the 2. Loveless & Saiyuki Reload run in Zero-Sum...is Wild Adaptor it that one? Or maybe it's in one of the Chara's. (I'm not with my collection right now so I can't check) And they all seem to have weird joke manga with no sex. I also picked up a shonen anthology with the Kenshin author's latest & I believe that one had the strangest story of what looked like a teacher sexually harrassing a male student. THe pix are hilarious (If that's a chick, she's pathetically flat) There is an attempt among some Western fans to try to separate the "porn" from the other stuff (both by fans of smut who don't seem to want to waste time buying boys kissing & the more prudish type (no insult intended) who are offended by porn/hentai & maybe see it as a disgrace to the genre). Last edited by CCSYueh on Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Cowboy Cadenza
Posts: 243 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY |
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I have nothing against yaoi. Let me just say that first off. So...let me get this straight. You would classify hardcore gay porn as simply hentai and just write it off like that? And the non-pornographic gay material is just yaoi? Here's what's wrong with that: the word yaoi was created specifically to refer to hardcore material. It's pretty clear cut. If you think calling it BL in real life sounds weird, then call it shounen-ai. That doesn't really sound that weird. I think I'm done with this topic now. It's really a random tangent of the thread and has little to do with anything written in the Answerman column. Edit: Sorry, left some important words out. |
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nikandros
Posts: 58 |
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As I didn't see this before when it first appeared, ill reply here. The big thing about O!MG is that Keichi is one of the few people who, while not ready for a relationship with someone who has trouble talking, is one of the few who also would treat such a person the way they deserve to. IE he is a good guy, he would treat her well. He has lived his entire life having bad things always happen to him, and has always kept a positive out look on life. As such, while she may in fact be a door mat, and that generally is bad, in this case, if anyone deserves to have an ultra nice door mat type wife/girlfriend, its Keichi. Belldandy, being who she is, deserves someone like Keichi as well, a person who messes up, but always, or almost always, has his heart in the right place. In another circumstance, with a different male lead, I would likely agree with this, however, it works here. She could be considered perfect with the right perception on what perfection is in a woman, HOWEVER, she has her own flaws. The problem is, these flaws could be considered positive attributes to some men. The fact that she is too nice, too forgiving, are both flaws, however, to some men, that would be perfect. To me, she is not perfect, however, she is perfect for Keichi. As for me, my ideal woman would be Konata. She of course has her flaws, first of all being an anime character playing a sterotypical role that leaves her as little more than a walking image of 'otaku'. However, a realized personification of Konata, would be much more perfect to me than a Belldandy. If Belldandy, or Konata, or hell, Alice from Aria were real, they wouldn't be the image we see in anime. They would be similar, i'm sure, however, real people are much different than what we see in the media. Call me jaded if you will, but I wouldn't want ANY anime character as they are in the series. I wouldn't mind a person similar to them in flesh in blood, however, you only see an image of them, and not a complete personality, because no matter how good the media is, it cannot give a complete personality to any work. |
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Chesis
Posts: 27 |
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I get that Belldandy's supposed to be a fantasy sweetheart, but it's a little discouraging that some guys out there still want the old 50s stereotype of the perfect woman - loves taking care of the housework, never disagrees or argues, and doesn't have any real interests or ambitions outside of taking care of her man and immediate family... yeah. Aren't you guys bored of this yet?
The soft-spoken, passive, non-threatening girls are okay in small doses, but when they show up as the heroine in every single romance show, and she's always the one that the hero picks, you start to get the idea that this is supposed to be the ideal that everyone else is measured by. And it sucks! I want other choices! I want Akane and Madoka and Lum and A-ko and Priss Asagiri back. I want kickass girls and brainy girls and sporty girls and ambitious girls and bitchy girls. Heck, I want better guys too. I want heroes who have to *earn* their girlfriends, not just win her by a stroke of luck or a pinky promise when he was five. God, isn't anyone else *tired* of Belldandy girls? |
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GATSU
Posts: 15337 |
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Damnit, people, Bell's not a doormat! She takes the initiative; she doesn't automatically do whatever Keiichi wants; and she calls the shots in the relationship. Cooking and cleaning are a sign of civilization, not a holdover from a primitive generation of man. For f*ck's sake, does she have to bag a bear and get in a bar fight to prove she's "tough" or what?!
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