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Splitter wrote:

fighterholic wrote:

Well, KnJ was purposefully made to be repulsive. And like Eminem's music or Chappelle's Show when they were coming under fire from critics, KnJ has also been able to attract an audience to this seemingly "repulsive" series.

Good analogy. Much like Eminem and Chapelle, KnJ uses extreme shock value to grab attention, but when actually paid attention to, it's revealed there's something deeper there and worth more applause.

Such as trite melodrama? I mean, by now I couldn't care less about all the controversy, but generic and unrefined art coupled with clichéd storytelling doesn't exactly scream deep to me.

As for Black Lagoon, I'll join with those that are decrying its praise. The art, page lay-outs and panel compositions are rather by-the-numbers for manga, and the character designs look... chibi-fied. The character development also comes across rather unnatural and by necessity of the plot/fan pandering.

(Oh, and anything Eminem put out after The Marshall Mathers LP is pretty much forgettable. The guy's become a parody of himself.)

Not that the anime adaption is a massive improvement, but it's more enjoyable than the manga.

[quote=column]Look, if you wanted to do boob jokes, why not just draw up a character that's old enough to be believably busty instead of pushing the limits of known biology?[/quote]
There is one: Houin-sensei. The problem is, how do you justify an adult character interacting with Rin and Kuro the way Mimi does?

zanarkand princess wrote:

I'm really surprised that kodomo no jikan was reviewed. I even watched 2 episodes before I judged it so I don't really think I'm making an uninformed judgment when I say that that show was really tasteless. It could have been heartfelt and touching it and it could have been a sweet coming of age story about how to deal with your feelings it could have even been a funny parody of that character that always likes older guys. But it wasn't. We know it's lolicon and no one can argue it's not.

Watch episode 6. Seriously. There's no lolicon in that episode, and it's a flashback, so it doesn't require any knowledge of prior events in the series. You can still deride the series after watching it, but you'll see that it can deliver real drama and emotion as well.

britannicamoore wrote:

Does any anime truly need fanservice to tell any story? I'm gonna go with no. Thing is, with KnJ the fanservice really isn't there to be fanservice. Rin is like any other child pushing the limits with something she knows causes a reaction. That's all.

Yes, the fanservice is totally in there to be fanservice. There are instances when the girls' actions are meant to be relevant, and instances when they are meant to be funny, but there are moments when they are quite obviously intended for titillation.

UtenaAnthy wrote:

britannicamoore wrote:

what's wrong with needing a bra in the 3rd grade? I ... Let's just say I was an early bloomer. You can guess what came the next year.

Is that spoiler[Ricky] from spoiler[Crusher Joe]?
.

Um....no I actually meant I needed a training bra in the late 3rd grade Embarassed

Dorcas_Aurelia- We'll agree to disagree no? I just don't see it that way. Sometimes, i feel like many people are just reading a completely different manga than I am.

For the record I don't think that it's the reviews fault at all as a matter of fact he's pretty brave for opening up this can of worms but nonetheless while some people argue that it's supposed to bring up topics that people are uncomfortable about why is a lot of the fan service unnecessary and obviously meant to be appealing in that creepy lollicon way?

Quote:

It seems to me that people are trying to find a story, some deep hidden meanings, to justify the this title's existence.

I must agree.

It seems to me that sometimes you get so into something that the more disturbing part of it becomes normal (And I don't really mean anyone here.) the fact that this title wasn't a big deal with a lot of fans in japan could be that stuff like this is released all the time. It's still disturbing to us because we don't get as much so I'm basically saying that we aren't so desensitized.The non otaku japanese public probably would have had a problem with it so I don't think it's the difference between japanese and american culture I think it's the difference between american anime fans and japanese anime fans.

Cool, I finally figured out how to get people to respond to my column!

Next month I'm doing a Shugo Chara hentai doujin or something. Laughing

dtm42 wrote:

If I were the teacher, I would be obligated to notify social services for possible abuse. That's the limit of what a teacher has to put up with in real life. Funny how counsellors and social workers, by and large, do not exist in Anime.

It's a good thing that it's fiction and not a real life situation.How much do you know about the culture?If garbage like that were to happen,I would hope the teacher would do something about it immediately.The Japanese from what I've heard over the years,keep to themselves as to keep the school's reputation and their job from being in jeopardy.

Shadowrun20XX wrote:

dtm42 wrote:

If I were the teacher, I would be obligated to notify social services for possible abuse. That's the limit of what a teacher has to put up with in real life. Funny how counsellors and social workers, by and large, do not exist in Anime.

It's a good thing that it's fiction and not a real life situation.How much do you know about the culture?If garbage like that were to happen,I would hope the teacher would do something about it immediately.The Japanese from what I've heard over the years,keep to themselves as to keep the school's reputation and their job from being in jeopardy.

Let me get this straight: Japanese teachers cover up any signs that the children have been abused by their parents/family in order to keep their jobs??? Ah, wouldn't that be counter-productive when an investigation is eventually launched and the teachers are sacked for not informing authorities that they knew/suspected of abuse?

Why would Japanese teachers worry about the reputation of the school and their own careers, if they weren't the ones to instigate the abuse in the first place?

britannicamoore wrote:

Dorcas_Aurelia- We'll agree to disagree no? I just don't see it that way. Sometimes, i feel like many people are just reading a completely different manga than I am.

People who like KnJ will be those who can empathise with the characters or the situations, and those who can't, wont.
KnJ must be really cathartic for someone who has been through or witnessed something similar, but could just never process it or talk about it properly because the experience was just so wierd and "out there".
It seems to be one of those stories that pushes the boundaries of all our "western, English speaking-culture" comfort zones - which, done properly, is not a bad thing (although I'm not sure if that's what the mangaka intended from a Japanese cultural point of view).

I'm glad Carlo decided to review KnJ, and he did a great job of it too. It's been one series I've probably subconciously avoided because I have grade school daughters, and the subject matter made me uncomfortable - but you know what? I think I WILL go watch Episode 6 of the anime after all.

Lord, let this not turn into an Internet Fight.

dtm42 wrote:

It has panty shots. Of eight and nine year olds. Rin gives her teacher an erection by rubbing her ass against his crotch. You know, you're right, it isn't stereotypical. It pushes the boundaries too far, way past most non-pornographic Manga, to head in a very disturbing direction. It doesn't make it "strong", but instead very controversial and quite repulsive.

What's so disturbing? Unlike in a number of other series no adult ever reacts to a child sexually(Aoki's erection notwithstanding; it's a reflex...one Rin didn't know she was causing, by the way). Is it so impossible to believe that a child would relish behaving in a way that gets her attention?

dtm42 wrote:

If I were the teacher, I would be obligated to notify social services for possible abuse. That's the limit of what a teacher has to put up with in real life. Funny how counsellors and social workers, by and large, do not exist in Anime.

Aoki actually did suspect that Rin was being abused at one point (he's totally wrong), and did call social services, who told him they couldn't do anything without evidence...and he doesn't leave it at that because he'd come to care about her so much. Fiction and reality are different. "I'll leave it to social services" is not a story.

dtm42 wrote:

It's fanservice first, story second. Kids that age simply do not get breasts, not that big at least. Of course, there are always strange exceptions, but most fans will see it as overt fanservice. It seems to me that people are trying to find a story, some deep hidden meaning, to justify the this title's existence in a non-erotic way.

I said it was exaggerated…but I'll agree that it's fanservice first...Mimi isn't very important compared to Rin, and the story of her body image hasn’t gotten much playtime. You’re damned right there’s a big lolicon market to appeal to in Japan. This doesn’t mean there’s no deeper meaning to it, that there’s nothing beneath the surface. Was George Carlin just a guy who swore a lot?

britannicamoore wrote:

Dorcas_Aurelia- We'll agree to disagree no? I just don't see it that way. Sometimes, i feel like many people are just reading a completely different manga than I am.

So I just scanned through about 25 chapters or so fairly quickly, and there's not loads of unjustified fanservice, and a decent bit of what there is probably is intended as shock value, but take the 19th page of chapter 28. I'm aware of the context, and it's really quite sweet, but if it wasn't intended to be fanservice, why does it need to take the whole page (I'm not posting a link to the picture because I'm afraid Photobucket would suspend my account for having kiddy porn)? In what way is a picture of two girls lying in bed, one naked but for her panties, the other sucking on her breast, not fanservice?

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

but if it wasn't intended to be fanservice, why does it need to take the whole page? In what way is a picture of two girls lying in bed, one naked but for her panties, the other sucking on her breast, not fanservice?

It is fanservice and intended to be fanservice. And that's my problem with the series. I agree, fanservice is - as the name says - service for fans, it is not necessary for the story and doesn't make the story any less good or bad (eventhough from my personal experience, fanservice and good stories rarely come together).

But, to me there is a difference between normal fanservice and fanservice that involves 9 year olds. This I think is wrong and disgusting. And, imagining the people that this "service" is aimed at scares me. I can only hope that the author really wanted to shock instead of please the readers by including this. v.v

Would be great for ANN to get an interview with Kaworu Watashiya maybe Anime hyper

It'd really be nice to actually hear the authors intentions and thoughts on all this etc.

dtm42 wrote:

Shadowrun20XX wrote:

dtm42 wrote:

If I were the teacher, I would be obligated to notify social services for possible abuse. That's the limit of what a teacher has to put up with in real life. Funny how counsellors and social workers, by and large, do not exist in Anime.

It's a good thing that it's fiction and not a real life situation.How much do you know about the culture?If garbage like that were to happen,I would hope the teacher would do something about it immediately.The Japanese from what I've heard over the years,keep to themselves as to keep the school's reputation and their job from being in jeopardy.

Let me get this straight: Japanese teachers cover up any signs that the children have been abused by their parents/family in order to keep their jobs??? Ah, wouldn't that be counter-productive when an investigation is eventually launched and the teachers are sacked for not informing authorities that they knew/suspected of abuse?

Japan and the West are very, very different places in many ways. In America, at least (I see you're from NZ, and I can't speak for your country, or any other country than the States and Japan) schools are mostly seen as serving the student, but in Japan schools primarily serve the parents, and more than that, society at large. If a teacher were to suspect that a child was being abused at home and contacted the authorities, he or she would been seen as 'meddling,' 'making waves,' and/or not doing his job. If his or her suspicions proved correct, s/he would probably still be reprimanded. But then, if the child was not found to be living in an abusive environment, there would be a gigantic backlash against the teacher and the school, which the school would then pass on once again to the teacher. No question, that teacher would be fired, and they might never be able to get a teaching position again.

Japan is at least a decade behind the West in terms of child abuse prevention and intervention. It is almost impossible to prove child abuse unless the abusive parents agree to be investigated (some references). I have yet to find evidence of any Japanese teacher being fired for failing to report suspicions of child abuse. That is not to say that it has never happened, but based on my firsthand knowledge of Japan and research, I strongly believe it hasn't.

dtm42 wrote:

Why would Japanese teachers worry about the reputation of the school and their own careers, if they weren't the ones to instigate the abuse in the first place?

In Japan the one is always supposed to be representative of the whole and should act accordingly. A teacher's actions are assumed to be condoned or even encouraged by the school itself unless the school actively distances itself from the teacher through termination or suspension.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

In what way is a picture of two girls lying in bed, one naked but for her panties, the other sucking on her breast, not fanservice?

But if you understand the context behind it, and the reason why its there its not meaningless right? I think fanserivce is only for occurrences that lack meaning. For example, Haruhi had a reason to wear her bunny suit, she was trying to recruit members. But when aa boob jiggles just because it can, or the characters have a costume change for the day/ that episode that revealing just because it can then its fanservice.

In short, in my opinion, if it isn't central to the plot or the development of a character and just happens because it can= fanservice.

Last edited by Goodpenguin on Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:56 am; edited 2 times in total

Quote:

But if you understand the context behind it, and the reason why its there its not meaningless right? I think fanserivce is only for occurrences that lack meaning. For example, Haruhi had a reason to wear her bunny suit, she was trying to recruit members. But when aa boob jiggles just because it can, or the characters have a costume change for the day/ that episode that revealing just because it can then its fanservice.

This isn't meant to focus on the writer of this quote, as this 'reasoning' seems very common around these parts, but the 'That's not cheap! There's a back-story why that happens cause'..' style of defense is inane. Not put glibly, anime/manga aren't documentaries, there fiction. Creators think of moments/elements they wish to include, and then fashion a story-line that allows it to happen. Camera's weren't on hand filming the character Mikuru on a school day and she just happened to wear a skimpy bunny suit. The shows creator/writers wanted to put a stacked character in a revealing suit and cooked up a story-line to fit it into, and then animated it. Everything in fiction is crafted to a purpose, and if a person is willing to repress all logic you can argue most any series has a story-line 'reason' for anything, no matter how terribly crafted/written. This is what you see over 'KnJ', as some fans will twist a standard ecchi/melodrama sentai story whose 'catch' is featuring elementary school girls into 'really serious background'.

All fiction is specifically crafted, and merely having a story-line frame behind an action doesn't automatically relegate it beyond the flimsiest of cover.

*Edit- typed 'sentai' above when term should be 'seinen'

britannicamoore wrote:

But if you understand the context behind it, and the reason why its there its not meaningless right?

As I see it, the incident is plot relevant, but the sexualization of its depiction is not.

I've got four more examples on hand, but nothing productive would come of listing them. Last word is yours if you want it.

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