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REVIEW: Dragon Ball Z Dub.DVD - Rock the Dragon Edition

PurpleWarrior13 wrote:

YamadaKun wrote: You can say that, but there are things in this world which are either sucky or great. I can understand vegetarians not liking Big Macs, but for meat eaters, how can they resist the juicy, succulent taste of a Big Mac? If they do resist it, that's their loss. Yes, there are things in this world that are sucky or great... in people's minds. Once again, those are called OPINIONS. What defines sucky and great can (and does) vary from person to person. Oh, and not all meat eaters like Big Macs.

Storytelling isn't as invisible an art as some make it out to be. A story is a machine with multiple parts acting to take it to its natural conclusion. Writing, as a practice, as well as what it produces, can be objectively dissected and analyzed. Attempting to apply blanket subjectivity in order to put every person's opinion on the same level also ignores that experience, authority, and study in film analysis have any poignancy. It smacks of the sort of anti-intellectualism that's running rampant in this country. If everything is subjective then there's no point to the pursuit of knowledge because what you encounter only means as much as you think it means and you can't be right or wrong either way. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that's a laughable idea.

Also people can like things that are awful and are acknowledged as so and people can still like them. A good 1/3 of my anime collection are awful and horrible animated anime and I love it for that specific reason. Just because it is awful and bad does not mean people still can not enjoy it in any way.

zeo1fan wrote:

PurpleWarrior13 wrote: YamadaKun wrote: You can say that, but there are things in this world which are either sucky or great. I can understand vegetarians not liking Big Macs, but for meat eaters, how can they resist the juicy, succulent taste of a Big Mac? If they do resist it, that's their loss. Yes, there are things in this world that are sucky or great... in people's minds. Once again, those are called OPINIONS. What defines sucky and great can (and does) vary from person to person. Oh, and not all meat eaters like Big Macs. Storytelling isn't as invisible an art as some make it out to be. A story is a machine with multiple parts acting to take it to its natural conclusion. Writing, as a practice, as well as what it produces, can be objectively dissected and analyzed. Attempting to apply blanket subjectivity in order to put every person's opinion on the same level also ignores that experience, authority, and study in film analysis have any poignancy. It smacks of the sort of anti-intellectualism that's running rampant in this country. If everything is subjective then there's no point to the pursuit of knowledge because what you encounter only means as much as you think it means and you can't be right or wrong either way. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that's a laughable idea.

No one person's opinion matters more than any one else's. We're all created equal, and no view is "higher" than one another's. A story cannot factually be good or bad. I personally think DBZ for instance has a fantastic story that's highly entertaining and is fun to watch while still having many fascinating and even touching moments. Not everyone would agree with that though. That's why it's called an OPINION.

A story doesn't even need basic structure, and some could still find some value in it (and of course others won't). Some highly acclaimed films ignore the basic plot map (and of course, many panned ones do follow it). It of course helps to follow it, but some could still consider a story good as long as they personally like it. There's no "factual" good or bad in anything. Saying otherwise goes against the fact vs. opinion rule that you learned in 2nd grade.

jsc315 wrote:

Also people can like things that are awful and are acknowledged as so and people can still like them. A good 1/3 of my anime collection are awful and horrible animated anime and I love it for that specific reason. Just because it is awful and bad does not mean people still can not enjoy it in any way.

True, but some might consider titles from that 1/3 to be good and some from the other 2/3 to be bad. There are titles in my DVD collection that I think are bad, but still enjoy watching anyway (like half of the Friday the 13th movies).

Wow. Reductivism; Communism; Anti-Intellectualism; is there even any point in wasting my time with you? I bet Daniel Postman is spinning in his grave.

No one person's opinion matters more than any one else's. We're all created equal, and no view is "higher" than one another's. A story cannot factually be good or bad. I personally think DBZ for instance has a fantastic story that's highly entertaining and is fun to watch while still having many fascinating and even touching moments. Not everyone would agree with that though. That's why it's called an OPINION. ;)

A story doesn't even need basic structure, and some could still find some value in it (and of course others won't). Some highly acclaimed films ignore the basic plot map (and of course, many panned ones do follow it). It of course helps to follow it, but some could still consider a story good as long as they personally like it. There's no "factual" good or bad in anything. Saying otherwise goes against the fact vs. opinion rule that you learned in 2nd grade.

Wow. Reductivism; Communism; Anti-Intellectualism; is there even any point in wasting my time with you? I bet Daniel Postman is spinning in his grave.

If a show can be considered objectively good or bad then no one would disagree on anything. People like what they like and that's a fact. That's not anti-intellectualism or whatever. People can still have debate and discussion, but to call someone's opinion flat out wrong is a conversational dead end and only serves to inflate your ego. But then that's just my opinion :wink:.

zeo1fan wrote:

Wow. Reductivism; Communism; Anti-Intellectualism; is there even any point in wasting my time with you? I bet Daniel Postman is spinning in his grave.

What the heck are you talking about?

PurpleWarrior13 wrote:

No one person's opinion matters more than any one else's. We're all created equal, and no view is "higher" than one another's. A story cannot factually be good or bad. I personally think DBZ for instance has a fantastic story that's highly entertaining and is fun to watch while still having many fascinating and even touching moments. Not everyone would agree with that though. That's why it's called an OPINION.

Well, this is plainly not true. The opinion of someone with expertise in a field clearly weighs more heavily than the opinion of a novice. If your doctor thinks you have lung cancer, you don't ask your neighbor for a second opinion, you go see another doctor. If Obama wants advice on how to handle the Syria situation, he's not coming to an anime message board, he's consulting his Middle East experts. That these examples are considerably more serious and significant than a disagreement over whether a TV show has a good story doesn't make them qualitatively different. Storytelling is an artform thousands of years old. There are objectively better and worse ways to tell a story. There is not always a sharply defined line between a good story and a bad story, but there is nonetheless a point where subjectivity has to give way to objectivity. That doesn't mean you're "right" or "wrong" to derive subjective enjoyment from a story. I had fun watching Bleach even though that story was a mess, and if I were willing to give it any thought I could probably come up with an anime with a very well-told story that I nonetheless just didn't enjoy. Your subjective experience isn't required to conform to a more objective assessment, but that doesn't mean that more objective assessment can't be made.

That said, there's not much that is objectively wrong with DBZ's story (in terms of structure, progression, etc).

Quote:

A story doesn't even need basic structure, and some could still find some value in it (and of course others won't). Some highly acclaimed films ignore the basic plot map (and of course, many panned ones do follow it). It of course helps to follow it, but some could still consider a story good as long as they personally like it. There's no "factual" good or bad in anything. Saying otherwise goes against the fact vs. opinion rule that you learned in 2nd grade.

Every story must be structured somehow. Some storytellers "ignore the basic plot map" because they've mastered their craft such that they aren't beholden to "Save the Cat" anymore. Those who can pull this off are few in number. They haven't discarded structure, they've found another structure that works. The line between those whose new structure works and those who simply don't know what they're doing in the first place may appear very fine to the untrained eye, but the line is there nonetheless. It's the same reason that if I give you some art supplies you might be able to come up with a picture that looks reasonably close to this, but nobody's going to hang it in an art museum because those who study art can easily tell that you aren't Picasso. Whether "some" consider something good doesn't make it so. Many things in this world are a grey area for sure, but not everything. There is plenty of room for subjectivity in art, but there can be objective answers as well.

zeo1fan wrote:

Wow. Reductivism; Communism; Anti-Intellectualism; is there even any point in wasting my time with you? I bet Daniel Postman is spinning in his grave.

Not sure where you got communism from, or why you think it's on the same level as anti-intellectualism.

shamisen the great wrote:

If a show can be considered objectively good or bad then no one would disagree on anything. People like what they like and that's a fact. That's not anti-intellectualism or whatever. People can still have debate and discussion, but to call someone's opinion flat out wrong is a conversational dead end and only serves to inflate your ego. But then that's just my opinion .

People fight over objective facts all the time -- just look at the Republican Party. More to the point, there can be objective good and bad in storytelling, but the precise boundary between them is, in practice, quite hazy. This is in part because a lot of specific complaints someone might level against a story are entirely subjective. I said above that there's not much objectively wrong with DBZ's story. Nonetheless there are plenty of subjective criticisms you could level at it (a common example is that it's overly simplistic). At its most basic, DBZ's plot is Goku and friends run into strong guy, get stronger in order to fight him, barely manage to defeat him, run into stronger guy, lather, rinse, and repeat. The structure and progression are sound but whether you just find that story boring or unsatisfying is an entirely subjective call. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the Dragon Ball franchise, but I don't begrudge people who find that sort of story tiresome. That part is completely a matter of opinion, it's true, but the entire question is not necessarily a matter of opinion.

This was worth a purchase to me for Brian Drummond's Vegeta alone. Sabat's interpretation of the character has always been very stiff and lifeless, whereas Drummond brings enough charisma and energy to the role to feed a 3rd world country.

@zero1fan Either way, everyone has a different view to everything. No two people on this earth have the same views. That's what makes this world so great. As long as something is "good" (or bad) to a specific person, that's all that matters as far as they are concerned. My personal viewpoint on a good story is that it's enjoyable. Absolutely nothing more.

Also, we're talking about a freaking anime/anime English dub here. The fact that something like communism was even BROUGHT UP is beyond silly and out-of-hand...