Forum - View topicShelf Life - Dog Days
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Cyclone1993
 Posts: 947 |
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Yes, I'd say it is desireable to an extent. I prefer characters who start off with nothing, that way you can see them come into their own. They are much more realistic characters than someone who is overpowered from the beginning. If the characters don't have something to struggle with, they aren't interesting. |
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TsunaReborn!
 Posts: 4713 Location: Cheltenham UK |
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@ Echo_City - For a realistic portrayal of a 14 year old in the situation he's in, yes that's the kind of protagonist I want; especially as he does get the job done and spoiler[saved Eureka] when the others are unable to. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, much like I wouldn't expect someone to try and change mine, but I really don't see the big problem with his character much like Shinji's; especially when you look at it in context and take into account their problems and back history.
Last edited by TsunaReborn! on Thu May 15, 2014 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bluenoser
Posts: 39 |
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Between this and what you said in the Nobunaga the Fool review eps 7-12 I've got to ask, are you a John Ringo fan? I ask because you sound a lot like him and his views, and the echo of his voice in yours is rather strong for me. As to your main points here though, how many 14 year old males do you know that are self confident, capable of assuming serious adult roles in life and in military activities without training of any kind going into it, and jump into it without reservation while having no emotional support structure, indeed a very negative one instead? While I'm willing to grant there are the odd few percent who would be, I would argue that far more would end up displaying the traits which so annoy you or somewhere near them than not, and that is without taking into account the other elements that define characters like Renton and Shinji (who I will add annoys me almost as much as he clearly annoyed you, at least the series Shinji, the Rebuild version I find less so). I ended up liking Eureka 7 a lot, but I almost dropped it in the first 20% because of how slow it started and because the characters were not making me want to care about them much, indeed for a while I was watching waiting to see Holland get his for being such a bullying bastard to Renton. Yet I also was finding little elements of the underlying world/universe being shown/created catching my interest so I kept watching it. My wife on the other hand stopped watching with me after about ep 5 because she just did not see a reason for her to continue, and was rather annoyed with the series for wasting her time. However, by the mid of the series I was solidly hooked, and managed to sweet-talk my wife into coming back to it, and we both ended up watching it through to the end and really enjoying it, it is one of the only times where she dropped a series and then based on my pestering her to come back to it that she did and ended up being really glad she did (alas I have done that with a few others where she was not so impressed with them or me for liking them, we may be a loving couple of many years, but our tastes still can surprise each other to this day, not such a bad thing in either of our books). While Renton clearly has issues and clearly is whiny especially in the first half, he is also essentially on his own in a hostile environment with no support structure to speak of even before you take the military aspects into account, andspoiler[ yet with one exception he never truly runs away from it, and even then his time with Charles and Ray ends up focusing him to come back and face everything despite his clear emotional issues in doing so, and not even their deaths changes that for him.] More than that , he clearly starts to grow, this despite his clearly not being the strongest personality type around, nor the most combative, nor the most ambitious. He grows because he loves into someone he never saw himself able of being and he faces down many massive hardships to get there and for all of his whining and immaturity (he is after all a 14/15 year old boy) he is also far more believable for it than the type of protagonist you clearly would prefer, which makes the emotional payoff at the end of the series when he rescues Eureka from her programmed fate far more than it would be without it. That is one of the very rare scenes in anime, hell in any watchable fiction that when I first saw it brought me to tears, not an easy thing to do with me, and it did so because I had come to be really emotionally invested in both of them because of the nature of their characters and the paths that they took to get to that point. Now, I'll admit I am not overly fond of this kind of male lead character being overly used, and that I suspect I share some of your preferences when it comes to what one might like to see more of in this regard. That being said though I think that Eureka 7 and Renton Thurston are well suited for each other, that Eureka 7 is one of the better anime out there in no small part because of the flawed characters within it, Over the years since I first saw it broadcast I've obtained my own copy of the series and still like to re-watch it once a year or so even to this day, and even now watching the conclusion fills my heart up, although not my eyes anymore, as I said that doesn't happen easily with me, and almost always only the first time I see something when it does. I would not be surprised to see myself making the investment ot get this BR version if it looks to be as good as it may be from the sounds so far, and I rarely do such duplications. Finally, to your question of who wants to watch such a whiny sad-sack lead male, I suspect many anime fans because they can see much of themselves in him, for so many of us were like that to some extent at that age (or even now as adults, although I am not speaking of myself so much on this point, my issues ran in different directions no less troublesome and obnoxious). I remember seeing so many at the various SF Cons I've been to since my first in the early 80s, and over the decades since I've come to appreciate just how much there is an inner geek to so many hard core anime fans, even the ones who grew up into very strong dynamic adults (no, I'm not saying this generalization is true for all, just a significant percentage within that community, like all large groups of humans there is a wide spread/curve of range, we are first and foremost individuals, not collectives, that is at the heart of human nature in my experience and one of the fundamental limitations of any generalization regarding humans and our behaviours/natures). It is that sense of self-identification which I've believed is why that character type has such a strong showing in anime and why it keeps such a strong place within it. I could and do on occasion wish it was less so, but such is life, it is an imperfect world where one never gets all (if much at all) of what one wants, the trick is learning to accept what one does get and to make the best efforts you can to get what you want and then make the most out of it rather than simply complaining about it being unfair or not to ones tastes. Sorry, hadn't meant to get so far off track here, alas that tends to be one of my greater failings, I am an easily distracted, severely ADHD long winded blowhard full of opinions, which is why I try not to share them too often. We are all fundamentally flawed creatures after all, it is part of the human experience. At least I know how to use paragraph spacing if a bit denser than some might prefer, unlike some that seem to want to leave one unbroken wall of text, ewwwww. |
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Redcrimson
 Posts: 160 |
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People who like complex, dynamic and well-written characters. People who are sick of transparent teen power-fantasy protagonists. People who prefer flawed, relatable, human characters in fiction. People who can relate to actually facing real hardships in life. People who aren't posturing, self-obsessed chuuni teenagers. Last edited by Redcrimson on Thu May 15, 2014 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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I agree with all that, but I too was shouting "about time" when even Holland got fed up with his blubbering and smacked him for it.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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What the heck do you mean by, "even Holland"? Holland was the guy who straight away used Renton as his personal punching bag just because Eureka liked the boy more than him. Holland was easily the worst and most despicable character in the entire show. |
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ajh2
Posts: 15 |
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@ Echo_City:
You missed Renton daydreaming of kissing Eureka several times and getting teased by Talho and the "children" for it. You missed his extreme joy at being able to touch her hand and her calling his name. He went from extreme joy to extreme pain, especially over the "children" so much so that he had to be told about them from the crew. @Bluenoser and Redcrimson: Exactly correct. I want the protagonist to be a 3-D person with believable flaws. The protagonist needs to show that they are a person and not a cardboard cutout. That they are indeed worthy of being the main character and different from the other characters including the "villain". Holland is a very complicated individual and I agree too abusive. I actually am not fan of him but he is very central to the plot as the person with the answers to most of Renton's questions (especially in the second half). |
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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Renton isn't complex, he's whiny coward who's only complex thought are "I hate my father" and "I love Eureka". Reton also pretty much doesn't change outside of realizing he has exclusive access to the most powerful weapon on earth and can keep acting like a whiny kid cause Nirvash will back him up in a fight. Renton is 100% a teen power fantasy, he's the only one who can use the most powerful weapon on earth (for reason outside his action) and the girl of his dream is essentially fated to fall in love with him (which she does despite him being pathetic pretty much every time he's in her company). He get to leave school (where's he's awful) to join this cool group of people and become a mech pilot with no training. Relatable is debatable, but there's one things I know, I do not want to relate to Renton, I like to think I'd be even a tiny bit useful in his shoe rather than a huge pain in everyone's back. Renton faces no hardship that he didn't cause, he choose to leave his house and he chose to run away the many time he does. It's also hard to consider him in any hardship considering, once again, he got access to the most powerful weapon in the world and not matter how much he screw up the gekostate can't kick him out cause of his relation to Eureka and nirvash. Renton is completely self-obesed, he's always talking about himself (doesn't every episode start and end with him monologuing his life?), and if he's not he's talking about how he wish eureka would love him. He pass his personal problem before the problem of the entire world, as demonstrated by the many time he choose to run away. I'm not asking for a super badass MC that can master piloting a mech the second he steps in it (which incidentally is what Renton does, he never actually learn to pilot mech, nirvash just sorta pilot itself). I just want a MC who understand the situation he's in and actually take steps to improve his situation rather than dedicate all his time to finding way he can bone the chick he likes. I don't really see the point of realistic character in this context, realism is throw out the door the moment you start having mech surfing in the air. Again not asking for him to be like Lelouch or Light and figure everything out, just for him to not being obnoxious for 2/3 of the series. |
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TsunaReborn!
Posts: 4713 Location: Cheltenham UK |
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But it is still possible to have a realistic character in an unrealistic situation. With that being said:
so for arguments sake lets say E7 is set 10,000 years in the future then it is not a completely unrealistic concept. |
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