Forum - View topicFullmetal ANNCast: Brotherhood
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amarielah
 Posts: 178 |
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The Izumi/Dante connection was admittedly a convenient coincidence, but Dante's creation of the homunculi was not. I'm sure she had her pick of human transmutations to exploit over the years, and kept tabs on talented alchemists. It would be the only logical thing for her to do, considering that she needed them to create the PS. But see, this is precisely the kind of nitpicking that I'm talking about. I noticed the Suspciously Convenient Coincidences in mangahood more because 1) it was a more plot-focused series, 2) they often involved characters acting bizarrely (see: Scar giving Mei Chang Envy, and than Mei Chang going back to Central because of Envy's manipulations), and 3) I was already taken out of willing suspension of disbelief by not liking its themes. They wouldn't have bothered me much if I'd been otherwise taken in by what was going on.
This is a personal preference, so I can't argue with it. All I can say is that, according to my interpretation of the first series, the parallel universe is actually a stroke of thematic genius. The parallels with our world were all there; we as viewers just assumed that they were typical fantasy counterpart stuff, as opposed to divergent history parallel universe stuff. I thought it was a very clever way of playing with viewer expectations, along with grounding the moral questions posed by the series more firmly in real life history. |
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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Any particular examples come to mind? I've been told Kurapika was less disgusted by killing in the manga than the 1999 version possibly, but I think it reinforces the handicaps and position of Kurapika's quest for vengeance and doesn't make him flat out ruthless just yet, and if one were to continue on in the series after the Yorknew OVA, I think hypothetically you could surmise that Kurapika becomes more hardened as time goes on anyways, but that may be a bad/false example. I'm just curious what detracts from it or what isn't considered canon. I don't think I noticed anything too out of place, and I just think it was a brilliantly articulated direction given how tense and tightly knit it is. Yorknew just fell totally flat for me in the 2011 version. As for my stance on Fullmetal Alchemist, I'm quite firmly in the 2003 camp. Sometimes I just get irked with how it's kind of in vogue to callously deem the first anime inferior or even flat out write it off, usually under the banner of "it's less canon and older, therefore it's worse", and this applies to Hunter X Hunter as well with me. Of course, the discussion here has exemplified far more elaborate and fair critiques than most I stumble across, but I still think people undermine 2003 a bit too much and are ruthless in retroactively picking out lots of flaws now that a fresher and "more faithful" version has arrived. FMA 2003 has its flaws to be sure, and a lot of people brushed them aside when it was trending back in the day, but now its gone to a completely different extreme I feel. In any case, I just feel the 2003 version has some more punch to it and more fascinating ideas, and frankly that's what I wanted out of the franchise to begin with. With Brotherhood it very much feels like a "solid fun shonen" spiced with the odd bit of subtext or bigger allegory in bits and pieces, but I'd like a series to really commit to those philosophical ideas if that's what it's going for; if I want a "solid fun shonen" I'll look elsewhere for something that's less of a tease. Stuff like the final battle against Father and just a general prioritizing of all the fighting in Brotherhood undermine potential moral and existential quandaries and such, as all of the subplots really converge into one grand battle rather than several separate ones or just overcoming ideological things, so it feels a bit more ham-fisted and/or shoe-horned in than what would be best, but like they were saying in the podcast: the focus of each series and strengths brought about from them may boil down to just a matter of preference. Aside from the overall more simple approach than 2003, I'm just really not that big on the first 13 episodes and the final arc really. I honestly noticed very little difference in the story's direction between Brotherhood's start and what 2003 captured prior to the main divergence. When Brotherhood was streaming I actually just stopped watching with that weird 1st episode, skipped ahead to episode 14 once it came out and time had passed because I noticed the name 'Rush Valley' in the episodes prior and figured I could skip them and I was not in the dark at all to what happened in episode 14 from remembering all the material from 2003 a few years before I started FMAB. Hell, going back and watching the first 13 episodes after finished the rest of the series, I noticed they didn't even really cover the gold mine chapters and Yoki's introduction and he's just introduced in passing when he shows up at Central or what have you in episode 14 or later and complains about Ed ruining his life when it was never shown in FMAB. The rest of the problems with the first 13 episodes have probably been pointed out a myriad of times now, so I'll just leave it at that. As for the last arc, going back to that very shonen-centric idea for Brotherhood's approach, some of the ideas thrown in there are rather uninspired and corny anti-revenge things that just seem a bit ridiculous, I mean, the objective of this whole war is to stop a pseudo-god from annihilating everything (and they do kill him) and yet we have Roy's confrontation with Envy with Ed, Riza and the others telling him to spare Envy and forgive what he did, but again it seems ludicrous when weighed with the main goal, and he just spoiler[ kills himself anyways ]. Then there's the whole logic deal with Father somehow being able to nearly seize "God" and become omnipotent through one still meager transmutation circle (omnipotence is a tricky idea to begin with) and like Hope said, there were those rather silly counter-measures put in place that started to turn the whole affair into some spectacle that kind of rewrites the series' logic in way, coupled with the weird timer on Al's soul, Ed's final transmutation, etc. The battle ends with Ed trying to go all macho and have a fist fight with Father to further that testosterone-addled shonen edge that also didn't sit quite well for me. That all caps off with the most sugary-sweet ending possible and that just really capped it off poorly because I feel despite all the crap that happened there still should be some compromise with the ending; those fairy-tale endings are just tiresome. I still don't like 2003's ending(s) of course, but at least they are a bit more daring than Brotherhood's. Ed and Al's back and forth sacrifices came off as a bit unintentionally hilarious, the other world ordeal was a pretty dumb idea, Conqueror of Shamballa is largely rather boring and the antagonist is fairly irrelevant while the conclusion is quite lame, etc, but still, 2003 has that challenging and brutal direction and ideas that really leave an impact and make it stand on its own I find. On a side note: as far as that discussion of the Homunculi goes, I think people are taking a few of the 2003 Homunculi's monikers too literally. Like they were saying in the podcast, the naming was more of an afterthought than the basis of what defines the characters completely, and that also gave the writers a little more to work with. The idea of 'Lust' is ardent and rather insatiable sexual desire which can blossom into a lot of personal human and moral issues, and 2003 Lust was Scar's brother's dead lover who was a femme fatale Homunculi whose ardor became something more complex than a sensual killer to a rather detached person looking to be loved as a human again and not some Homunculi "freak" whereas she hardly gets as much attention in FMAB. 'Gluttony' I'd argue is a very minute trait that is kind of derivative of 'Greed' or 'Envy' really in a yearning to just eat, so it's more of a basic caricature, and so I guess I can see Arakawa making him more simplistic so as to not become too much like those aforementioned sins (granted, my preceding statement about Lust has her sounding like it aligns to 'Envy' to a bit, but I'm sure something can be formulated here). The other outliers would probably be Sloth, Wrath and Pride who are different between the 2 adaptations. Like with 'Lust' I feel the sin of 'Sloth' has some more to work with than the manga and Brotherhood would have it; 'Sloth' as a character trait denotes a lot of apathy and laziness towards something, and that could run along the lines of ennui or self-imposed alienation and such, so there's some dimension that could be had here, and I think 2003's Sloth--while still a bit abstract in her personality in tandem with her moniker--has more subtlety and nuance than the Brotherhood counterpart that just says "what a pain" and slowly completes a task. 2003 Sloth could be dubbed that for her more passive stance on the Homunculi and Dante's goals, her working for Bradley as some reserved assistant and a little more explicitly: her malleable, freeform (uncaring) body composition and such or something along those lines, but perhaps my rationalizing of 2003's Homunculi being more complex and fitting is a double sided coin with just how abstract that can be. Wrath I think is conceptually more dynamic in 2003 than as Bradley in Brotherhood; we have a jaded, naive kid who could be going through hormonal changes coupled with very raw and honest emotion of unease and primal 'Wrath' that could be seen in a kid in real life, but maybe the honed adult rage of Bradley as Wrath is more suitable for some and is just different strokes. Lastly, Pride I personally feel embodies Bradley quite fittingly with his stature and eerily jovial nature along with his aims, but I guess Hope and Mike were outlining that Bradley in 2003 just kind of reached a stasis once he became Fuhrer meanwhile as Wrath in Brotherhood, he is an actively aggressive servant to Father to crush his enemies and such, it might be amusing to see the Pride moniker as some weird prescient poetic downfall of how his "Pride" with all of his accomplishments and forging a seemingly perfect life for himself became his undoing? Idk. I apologize if I come off as hypocritical with my potentially equally as brazen response to all the 2003 flak and Brotherhood cherishing, but I just get a bit spirited about those things. TL;DR: I prefer 2003 because it is thematically ambitious first and foremost, feel Brotherhood is a bit flat, the 2003 Homunculi are quite fascinating individuals rather than pawns really. P.S. I feel a bit bad for Mike still though, it seemed like Hope (and more roundaboutly Zac) were quite aggressive in their stance haha. |
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daichi383
 Posts: 313 Location: England |
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Regarding Scar and Miles and the race thing you guys brought up. I get what you are trying to say but i think context was really key in that case. Miles himself wouldn't really be as attached to Ishval as Scar since he didn't grow up there and really, righteous anger is only justified to a certain extent. Its not a case of being a "bad" or "good" minority but Miles just not feeling sympathetic to Scars cause because he's a murdering psychopath. Honestly talk of being a good or bad minority irks me some speaking as one myself because really you will find people with different beliefs who are of the same race and just because one is on the side of the supposed enemy doesn't mean his views are inherently problematic. I'm assuming you're obviously already aware of this lol. Just different worldviews in this case and a good example of ones environment informing their beliefs. Scars development after that didn't really seem out of place to me. It didn't look like he'd encountered a fellow ishvalan with that worldview so taking in that opinion and evaluating what he'd been doing; i could see him deciding killing wasn't really productive in the long run. Thats my take anyway.
Enjoyed the podcast otherwise and agree with most of what Mike said. Personally like brotherhood better. As a shallow as hell sakuga nerd, all my favourite peeps did great animation (e.g. Yoshimichi Kameda animating Lust VS Mustang, Hisao Yokobori on Wrath VS Greed) and i just love watching endless well animated fights. Not gonna lie. 
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jr240483
 Posts: 4388 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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HUH? Bailey married mustang's VA? that is definitely news to me. had the asumption she was dating mignona since they have been seen together a lot of times in panels. at least that is what the rumorville have been for a while now. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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Ok I am really at a loss what makes the first anime more cerebral than Brotherhood. People seem to mistake cerebral with dark. The first series used melodrama to tell its story and themes while Brotherhood used action and adventure. Although the first series had plenty of action as well.
I understand people not liking such a pat ending that Brotherhood had but Arakawa wanted to say through hard work and perseverance and even a little pain you can EARN a happy ending. If you want to understand Arakawa's themes look at Silver Spoon as despite different settings the two stories share a lot of the same themes. Arakawa even said in interviews she got the idea of equivalent exchange through working on a farm. Finally while the final battle with Father was not necessarily my favorite part of the story I vehemently disagree that the ending was a deus ex machina, everything that happened was explained in some way earlier in the story including how everyone's soul came back. No solution came out of nowhere. Ed's solution to get Al back was also tied into the themes of the story and his growth of a character. Also Roy killing Winry's parents does not make him more complex or dark. Should we ignore all the Ishvalan's he killed. He was also following orders. |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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What "rumorville" are you listening to? The fact that Travis Willingham and Laura Bailey are married is clear just from looking either of them on Wikipedia, and they've been married for several years. It's pretty well-established.
I think you already know I agree on this generally, but I did want to nitpick the specific example Hope and Zac gave: that Hohenheim created a reverse transmutation circle to counteract Father's. I seem to remember this was foreshadowed with Al, Mei, Scar and Marco researching stuff about reverse transmutation circles when they were traveling together during the Briggs arc. That said, there are a million and one other things about that ending and various other plot things in Brotherhood that feel pulled out of nowhere. It's true that (as others said) good plotting doesn't require everything to have a specific explanation and plot holes aren't the huge deals nerds think they are. Yet when it's that noticeable that it pulls you out of the story and it's in a series routinely praised for its intricate plotting, it's a relevant criticism. Last edited by SailorTralfamadore on Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Oh one more thing I think it is natural to relate things to what we are familiar with but the Ishvalan's were not inspired by the Jews in Nazi Germany or anything going on in the Middle East.
Arakawa was inspired by the Ainu who were from her own hometown. She said her own ancestors displaced them but she also now has Ainu blood through intermarriage. |
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SailorTralfamadore
Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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When people compare them to that, they're usually talking about the first anime. Which was written by different people who were pretty clear that they were taking it in their own, specifically political direction. Director Seiji Mizushima has said in multiple interviews that he intended the Ishbal/Lior stuff in FMA 03 to send a message about the recent wars in the Middle East, and it's a fixation that runs through a lot of his work at the time (see also: Gundam 00, which I hear was even more blatant about its Iraq War themes). Also, in the Conqueror of Shamballa movie that's a sequel to the 03 series, we see our world's versions of Rose, Scar and Lust (one Liorian and two Ishbalans, since Lust is the reincarnation of Scar's brother's girlfriend here). And they are all Romani, a group that was actually persecuted by the Nazis in the Holocaust. Lastly, even in the manga/Brotherhood, it was pretty clear that the persecution of the Ainu was just one thing that inspired how Arakawa dealt with the Ishbalan conflict. She also has said that she interviewed Japanese WWII veterans who fought in China for her military characters. This stuff can be about more than one thing. So, no, people are not pulling this out of nowhere or only "relating it to things they are familiar with." (Also, how do you know that all of the people talking about this are so ignorant about the Ainu, anyway? That's a pretty huge assumption to make.) Last edited by SailorTralfamadore on Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:43 am; edited 4 times in total |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8467 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Arakawa basing the Ishvalans on the Ainu is besides the point. Clearly the people in charge of BOTH anime ran with a Middle East conflict thing in their approach, as it was relevant at the time. While the material in Brotherhood is from Arakawa's manga, where she based Ishvalan people on the Ainu, just look at the specific design of the temple in the first series that the chimera soldiers infiltrate or listen to the track "The Land of Ishvala" from the Brotherhood OST.
And it's pretty clear on how the shows (esp. Brotherhood) depict this multitude of white faces marching in to exterminate the brown people that there's something other than just what Arakawa took from the Ainu influence for the manga. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
Posts: 2633 |
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Can you show me where I said ALL people or that NO ONE knows about the Ainu. I am talking about a common misconception I've seen when discussing Brotherhood & manga. And yes I am only talking about Brotherhood & the manga NOT the first anime hence I specifically said Arakawa. And yes some of the misconception stems from the first anime and possibly some direction Brotherhood took as Penguintruth pointed out. So I also did not say anywhere that people are pulling it out of nowhere. Arakawa interviewing WWII veterans does not negate that her main inspiration for the Ishvalan's were the Ainu which she stated in interviews. She basically took most of her inspiration from her own experiences and people she met and talked with. Edit: Also I myself am pretty ignorant when it comes to the Ainu much more so than the conflict in the Middle East or WWII so I would never think to call someone else ignorant on the subject. |
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Fedora-san
 Posts: 464 |
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That does raise some question why killing hundreds of Ishvalans is fine but killing Winry's parents is what drives him to near suicide. At least Brotherhood Mustang hated his entire part in the war. Also, killing Winry's parents being his motivation to become Fuhrer kind of loses it's impact when he gives up on being Fuhrer towards the end of the series. But my problem with that change is it kind of cheats Winry out of development with coming to terms with her parents killer. In Brotherhood she originally wanted revenge on Scar and planned to shoot him (however futile) to avenge her parents, but over time she realized what her parents would have done and they died trying to help people knowing they would get killed doing so. So in the end Winry ends up helping Scar, taking care of him when he's injured when they're all stuck with each other and on the run, following in her parent's footsteps. In the original anime the first time she ever confronts Mustang about it she almost instantly forgives him after him explaining the situation which seemed a bit too easy. Then again Winry never did much in the original anime and she was severely underdeveloped compared to Brotherhood. I also agree I think people over evaluate the cerebral-ness of the first series a bit. It's fine to have preferences, but I don't agree with this notion that being gloomy or dark is more complex than getting a happy ending. Mustang being reduced to a one eyed coot in a shack in the middle of nowhere doesn't make him a complex character, just a miserable one. Personally I felt that to be an extremely dissatisfying end for his character arc. Ironically, that's the kind of fate Riza wanted Roy to avoid by stopping him in his quest for revenge against Envy. |
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Kadmos1
 Posts: 13580 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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While my enjoyment of Brotherhood is strictly limited to seeing the entire series subbed and about the 1st 26 episodes dubbed (and occasionally having seen scanlations), this thread has probably some of the most wall of texts I've seen in any site thread.
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jppcouto
 Posts: 103 |
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the people from the podcast don't understand nothing about the plot and theme points from fma manga. I would like to know what is a fantastic animated show for you. Death note? Evangelion? Cowboy Bebop? Sword Art Online? THe plot of those shows sucks comparative to FMA Manga.
F*** you Anime news network! |
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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FMA 03 really doesnt do anything with Mustang killing Winry's parents. The scene where Mustang is about to commit suicide should have been done involving Ishvalans since it just made Mustang look like he only cared about the fact that he killed two white people beside the mountain of Ishvalans he killed.
It doesnt add anything to Mustang because he has the same motivations that the manga Mustang already had, and in fact manga Mustang actually achieves that goal. We got a few scenes with Winry being sad, but they dont come even close to the scenes we get of Winry interacting with Scar in the manga/Brotherhood. Apparently CoS was supposed to have Winry talk with Mustang at Hughes' grave but that scene was deemed so unimportant that they just cut it out of the movie. You know because we really needed that subplot where Mustang is really sad and then the next time he appears his perfectly fine. As for the reverse Transmutation circle that was foreshadowed by the scene where Hohenheim puts several philosopher's stones in the ground, and obviously that explains why Hohenheim left in the manga and Brotherhood. He discovered that Father was creating a nationwide Transmutation circle, he left to stop it, and he was planning to come back as soon as that happened. The drama is ruined if they explained every minute detail of Hohenheim's plan before it happened. Also as Sailor Tralfamadore mentioned the Ishvalan Massacre doesnt mean just one thing. It can relate to a ton of different things. Obviously a major influence was with Imperial Japan but it also deals with how we treat minorities. It deals with the Cycle of Revenge, and how killing people really only leads to more killing. |
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ParkerALx
 Posts: 194 |
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Shinobi-03, a frequent poster on mangahelpers, explained the situation in more detail when he was doing episode comparisons between the old and new shows.
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