Forum - View topicNEWS: Japanese Poll: 87% Accept Manga Child Porn Regulation
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ultrapostman
 Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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First off, don't call me a troll. There's a big difference between poking fun at the overly serious nature of a lolicon debate and trolling to piss people off.
All I was doing was trying to illustrate a widely accepted scientific theory: that environmental stimuli influence early brain development. If you had actually paid attention to my "silly hypothetical stuff" you'd know that it is not only possible, but logically probable given the situation. Don't accuse me of trolling just because you forgot what you posted.
Well, yeah, you still don't understand what I said. Let me make this clear for you: Human brains are at their most impressionable during early life, from birth to around 11 or 12. After that, the ability of the brain to change slowly diminishes, so a 30 year old won't be as affected by something he reads as a 9 year old. The whole point of this article is on public opinion about lolicon regulation, since there aren't any current regulations in Japan. Sure, reading "Generic Lolicon Rape Fantasy #26" might not have much of an effect on 24 year old Carl, because his sexual orientation has probably already been decided (note, if Carl is already a pedophile, then the effect this material would have on him is off topic, because it played no role in making him a pedophile). But if 10 year old Zac and his friends think it's "cool" to read "grown up comics" then there's no way to accurately predict the effect. The point is, there is really no way to predict that sort of situation (even testing (which would be completely unethical) would be difficult) so the best thing to do is prevent it from happening.
By all means, but as I already stated there do need to be some regulations to keep this stuff out of the wrong hands. If it can be proven that lolicon reduces child molestation, then all arguement against it basically goes out the window.
Speaking as a minor (in high school), I actually agree with you (well sort of). Looking down on young elementary school kids these days, it may seem cliched to say, "Wow, I was never that foulmouthed" or "Jeez, these kids know what sex is. What the hell is wrong with their parents?" but I really do think that (in New Jersey at least) kids these days are exposed to too many negative influences at too young of an age. Sure I laugh when people say, "GTA makes kids commit violent crimes" because I know there's no way that could ever be true for me, but my parents didn't let me play GTA until I was in middle school. Some of my friends played it when they were only 10. Looking back, most of my friends are perfectly fine, but as for some of them, I don't know. |
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MokonaModoki
 Posts: 437 Location: Austin, Texas |
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I think you've focused on a overly narrow definition of trolling with an exclusive aim of pissing people off. I'm not accusing you of having any such intent. I merely note that you have (a) admittedly and intentionally adopted a position somewhat contrary to the one you actually hold, and (b) are posting from that position with the intent of generating argumentative responses (and I refer solely to the first quoted item above as evidence of that intent). For any veteran of Usenet discussions, those two pieces are a hallmark of trolling. Poking fun at worn-out topics is what the best trolls are supposed to do, if they do their job well. It's not like I was insulting you, I was just saying it could be done better. Here's why. I said this: "for people who find that it suits their tastes I would rather they have access to it as an outlet for their desires than be tempted to fulfill them by snatching kids off of playgrounds." Which means no more than that I suspect that there may be a social benefit in allowing such materials to be available to those with such proclivities. It did not say that I am opposed to regulating such materials, which would be false. It did not say anything about preteens having access to such materials, which I would oppose. You took what I said, changed its focus, asserted the presence of absolutes never stated by myself, and implied that I was opposed to any regulation of virtual child-pornography (and was effectively in favor of minors having access to it). That is bait for argumentative responses -- that is trolling, so that's what I called it. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Didn't I tell you specifically not to do the "I'm going to argue a position I don't hold for the hell of it!" thing? Do you always just ignore what the forum administrators tell you or is this a new thing? |
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babbo
Posts: 274 |
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Why not? Devil's Advocate is an excellent way to keep discussion from stagnating. More often than not in situations where people agree to often (which is entirely possible in a niche community forum of discussion) they often come to a consensus without discussing the other side of the argument in any real detail. And its not like it hurts anything. |
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sanbyaku
 Posts: 34 Location: london, england, uk |
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This seems to have turned into a complicated topic, if you would allow me one or two questions (especially directed at those who travel/live in japan) is this lolicon manga available in 'normal' shops or is it only available in the 'adult' stores?. I have to agree with the person who said that having minors view such content should be prevented, but i also agree that using this material as an outlet may be a good idea.
In regards to the people who claim that pedophiles are 'born not bred', it sounds too much like people who believe in destiny and fate and i cant wholeheartedly agree with this, in my opinion i think that these pitiful people are like that because they were subject to pedophilia themselves or they have too much imagination but since its my opinion it doesnt really count much i suppose... |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Why should I bother listening to your argument when I know you're being completely insincere and disingenuous? Furthermore, the people who do constantly resort to Devil's Advocate stuff usually completely misrepresent the argument they're pretending to hold up because they don't really understand it in the first place. Also, announcing to the forums "I'm going to switch positions now and argue for the side I don't agree with!" is so intensely lame and misguided I can't believe anyone would actually do that. |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Would someone, a supporter from each side would be best, please round up the argument for and against lolicon material for me.
I don't want a pro loli poster posting about the anti loli argument in their post, not trying to discredit or disprove any of their arguments and same for the anti loli's no pro loli in your post at all. Once it has been nicely brought together it is far easier to discuss each point in turn and makes the argument infinitely easier to follow as opposed to this mish mash of posts in several different topics all with a slightly different slant being very difficult to follow. Please don't just generalise or 'boil it down to...' I want as comprehensive as possible a list of the arguments that you use to support your side with evidence where possible. |
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babbo
Posts: 274 |
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Woah nice job deciding on my my disposition for me o,o Even better job generalizing a common tool of discussion. I mean think about it, how the hell does that even begin to become a good basis from discouraging the use of devil's advocate as whole? It's not a common tool in academia around the world for no reason at all. Rather than discourage it's use out of hand (ie be lazy) you should encourage people to do a bit of research to back up the position that they're taking since the main point of devil's advocate is to teach about the position that you're taking. How many pro lolicon people have you seen on here? |
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ultrapostman
Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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I'm sorry. I thought you were using it in an insulting sense, but you're right, I didn't think of the entire definition. But if you look at your original post (the part that I bolded), you'll see why I made my original post. In the end, I guess this was a misunderstanding on my part.
Look Zac, let me make this short and simple (I'll pm you a more detailed response). The last time you said this, I responded, and you obviously didn't read it. You've got no grounds here, since there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing (trying to provoke conversation in an intelligent matter). |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I have "no grounds" here on an internet forum I administrate? This isn't a democracy or a court trial, if I tell you not to do something, don't do it or I'll kick you out. How hard is that to understand? |
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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I'm pro lolicon. I'll admit i'm all for drawing and animated lolicon. Not real life real childern lolicon. I love KnJ. Although to be fair I feel I might be desensitized to fanservice. After years of panty shots, young girls losing clothes, boys in bad situations and everything else anime is infamous for it doesn't bother me in the least. Real life kids? I've never seen any and if I did I'd probably upchuck for a few days. hentai4me, those are the reasons I'm pro loli. I also feel that too a degree it stops some people from doing the actual acts. Kind of like people who get so angry they want to do very harmful things but take their frustation out on a video game. Also, drawn charcters don't get hurt. They don't have feelings and they aren't going to grow up. Why stop people from drawing something or reading materials that don't hurt anyone? I also openly admit that I have no evidence or articles to support those claims. Just my thoughts on the subject. As for people switching sides for their own amusesment? We've already got enough people on either side. Pick a side and stick to it unless and only if someones arguement changed your mind. Honestly I don't even know how you feel about this subject because you're flipping back and forth all the time. |
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ultrapostman
Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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I think most people would prefer to think that they wouldn't just be kicked out because you're pissed off. That's why you have rules isn't it? To set the boundaries for people and tell them: alright, you abid by these and you'll be fine. What's the point of having Teh Rules if you just decide on personal opinion and boot people because you're upset? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I'm not "just pissed off", you're openly saying that you're arguing positions you don't believe in for the sake of argument and then claiming that apparently your insight is so intelligent and interesting that it's raising the level of discourse. It's annoying, arrogant and frankly, stupid; if you don't actually believe what you believe, why are you arguing for it? Just because? This isn't high school debate team, it's a forum. A community. Also, as an administrator, I'm not completely and totally bound by the stated rules. If you're doing something stupid and I think the community would be better off without you, I'm going to kick you out, even if there is no explicit language in the rules that say what you're doing is wrong. Again, this is not a democracy, please stop arguing as though you're "stickin' it to the man" by fighting with me over some bizarre sense of personal injustice you picked up from having someone in charge tell you to stop acting like a moron. |
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MokonaModoki
Posts: 437 Location: Austin, Texas |
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I don't really mean to pile on with the sort of statements that you might get offended by, but bolding that part was pretty much what made me think you were trolling me. I didn't think you were trying to piss people off, I thought you were trying to be funny. I was just a bit annoyed that you were using my post to do it. Since I called it too silly to reply to before, I'll go ahead and give it a whirl now. In both your replies to me, I (mostly) got where you were coming from, and I do understand what you were trying to say... I'm just still not buying the notion that fictional material should seriously be posited as a factor to be assumed as a likely contributing cause of a paraphilia/psychosexual disorder such as pedophilia. The fact that you even tried to go there was what convinced me that your post must be an attempt at the "ha ha, I don't really believe this" type of trolling. I'm pretty sure that pedophilia doesn't have to be biological in nature, so I'm not even going to pretend that was what I meant by hard-wired. Real psycho-social factors such as childhood sexual abuse, dysfunctional interaction with parents and/or other adults at early ages, stunted emotional maturity, an abnormal need to dominate, being just plain nuts, etc. are all viable bases for theories about how a person might develop pedophilia. But compared to factors like that, the notion that an otherwise healthy and normal 11- or 12-year-old (or anyone, really) would willingly expose themselves to this garbage to the extent that viewing it would induce the onset of a full-blown paraphilia just seems a bit absurd. To be that fascinated by loli-hentai, to the exclusion of all the other porn out there and without the active influence of a dysfunctional adult would only suggest that onset of the paraphilia was already occurring. There's no doubt at increasing levels of exposure that there would be an unacceptably high likelihood of creating other negative responses (any number of relatively minor - compared to pedophilia - sexual dysfunctions leap to mind), but a full-blown change in a fundamental aspect of sexual orientation? That just seemed a bit over-the-top. I apologize if you were serious in what you were suggesting, but I really couldn't take it seriously. That's an annoyingly long paragraph, so I'll reiterate: negative consequences from exposure to garbage - absolutely; create a pedophile with it alone - no way. If you want to disagree with that, then just assume that I'm irredeemably stupid unless you need to get in the last word on it (you're welcome to it). I don't have the energy to debate it any further and am unlikely to reply if you do. And now I'm annoyed with you because writing these replies made me go look up more information about pornography and/or pedophilia than I wanted to be exposed to today. 
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Amasa
 Posts: 340 Location: Japan |
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Err...as an administrator of the site shouldn't you know to keep personal bickering out of discussion threads? Maybe you two could pm each other instead?
Anyway, let's try not to derail this thread. I'd prefer not to have this thread derailed since I think we can debate without being uncivilised. Moomintroll, that's the evidence that I provided. To some extent, I also believe it! When you provide you're own evidence then maybe we can talk. Do you want to know why I used that source? Because every other source would be too easy to find flaws in. If I used a book that nobody has ever read then you would discredit it, if I used a website that doesn't look authentic, then you'd dismiss it, if I used an article from a magazine then someone would claim the magazine was bias. I used this source because it's a well known, easy to read, easy to find book which discusses and reasons out the for and against argument of social conditioning and sexual preference. Like every book in the history of literature it has created a name for itself and some people don't like it. It's not the best and I could probably find something that's more relevant to pedophilia but I don't really know anything, so sorry. So back to the topic. Hentai4me that's a good idea, I'll try my best to do that. I always used to think that lolicon was disgusting and should be banned but from reading enough threads like this my opinion has changed and while I still don't find watching the material enjoyable in the least I think that arguing as an advocate for it has its benefits. 1) In my opinion the most important point that's been made was by Steroid. "Because politics isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of right and wrong. Arresting, fining, or jailing someone for drawings is wrong, no matter how many people say otherwise." No crime is being comitted when someone puts a pen to paper and draws a child having sex. Nobody is being harmed while drawing it, and nobody is being harmed while looking at it. Therefore it is within anybody's legal right to buy it and watch it. This is a completely practical point that nobody can argue. 2) When discussing laws, especially censorship laws, morals should have no role in the decision. As angel_lover put it "Even if 100% of the people in a country said that something should be so, that doesn't make it right." Arguing from a moral perspective in this topic doesn't get anywhere because on no reasonable grounds is it verified as correct. If everyone in America voted to ban a film encouraging Nazism that doesn't mean it should be so. Cultural values and the morals of society change, this is what is happening in Japan. While drawn child pornography has not been completely overlooked by the Japanese Government over the years, a proposal to ban it would be completely invalid unless they have statistical proof that shows the long-term damage the material has on the community. The proposal would be supported only by moral and ethical claims. 3) No proof has been reported by the Japanese Governmnent that shows that manga child porn is harmful to society and should be regulated for the welfare of everyone. As has been pointed out serial killers and child molestors have been influenced by lolicon but it's the same with many provocative material. You can't say that all apocalyptic anime should be regulated because the Hiroyuki Tsuchida case shows that it can inspire murder. Therefore nobody has any reason to ban or regulate manga child porn. 4) This point is the most controversial and most debated and I don't even know my own stand on it. A lot of people argue that it's better that pedophiles enjoy lolicon rather than satisfy their desires with real children. I believe that a person's environment cannot change their sexual preference. Lolicon does desensitize the issue of pedophilia and lolicon communities might even discuss their feelings towards real children, but the images themselves are not directly harming anybody nor are they telling anyone to go rape a child (though if they did I wonder what difference it would make). I'm not going to make the assumption that all lolicon fans are aware of the illegal nature of the situations in the images, but likewise making the assumption that fans of lolicon are going to go outside and molest a child is irrational and incorrect no matter where you stand on the topic. Remember that what's being argued isn't age regulation. I think that most people agree that this material should not, under any circumstances, be seen people people under the age of 15 - at least. That's a given and adult websites do have age verification restrictions in place, and that websites containing manga child porn should also have.
Okay that was irrelevant but no, the porn in convenience stores do not have labels saying "This is porn showing children in sexual situations, make sure you're really over 18 to buy this". Yes, it's sold in convenient stores, newsagencies, bookstores, and adult stores alike. No, loli porn isn't on every shelf, it's a fetish that only some people like but is popular enough to be sold in every Seicomart or Seven11.
The fact is that it is possible to suppress sexual desires. Think of extreme religions or celibacy, but in these cases there are higher chances of emotional and behavioural consequences that are not worth risking. For decades people in Western societies have agreed that pedophilia is an unnatural and unethical practice, we all still agree on that, but the thousands of fans of lolicon were not subjected to sexual harrassment, neglect, emotional trauma, molestation, violence, or other typical forms of distress that we associate with crimes. So what I was trying to say earlier is that if these people (the majority of them being adults with minimal access to lolicon material on the internet in their "most impressionable" youth) enjoy drawn images of children having sex then perhaps it's completely biological. I don't think that't stretching the boundaries of reason and it has been proven but people opposed to the idea find it hard to believe that a concept that's had such a vehement social stigma for so long is actually biological and unchangeable by the environment. Hope that changes things a bit. |
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