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Red Fox of Fire
 Posts: 345 |
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It's the same reason there are so many yaoi fangirls out there; controversy brings something new. It makes it feel more "dangerous." And people are attracted to that. I'm not personally disgusted by the little sister fetish, or any incest in fiction, at all, and I have both a brother and sister of my own. Honestly, I enjoyed Yosuga no Sora, and Sora's arc (the twin sister) was my favorite part. I'm not surprised that it is socially unaccepted and many people dislike it, but I have been a bit surprised to see just how many people are absolutely disgusted by incest in fiction, whether fetishized (NakaImo), or taken seriously (Koi Kaze), especially since I'm not even in the only-child section of things. It actually kind of angers me when people write something off as a piece of garbage just because it contains hints of incest; a clear sign of narrow-mindedness to me. But I guess that's because I believe in "you don't choose who you fall in love with." |
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dandelion_rose
 Posts: 657 Location: Kuala Lumpur |
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@Red Fox
The dynamics of real life incest is closer to rape. I live in a community with very high RL incest cases and it is nothing like the hypothetical fantasies in anime and manga. (I see so much praise for Koi Kaze -- having read some of it, I'm not impressed. It still exists in that fantasyland incest dynamic, except that while other stuff are blatant fetish feed Koi Kaze is drama. That doesn't make it a thoughtful approach to incest, just a dramatic one.) I think it's a good thing that people are disgusted by incest, since RL incest is very much like rape and that's basically the sound of their conscience kicking in. I do think it's possible to have an incest fetish without actively pursuing incest, just as plenty of people have rape fantasies without actually wanting to rape or be raped by someone IRL. Just as people into rape fantasies are attracted to the fetish because of the element of power and control, so are some people drawn to incest as a fetish because of the element of taboo and forbidden love. Nevertheless, I don't think it's right to call people who have issues with it 'close-minded'. It's their natural defense against terrible actions. If they don't see the allure of these fetishes, then they don't see it. And frankly, I don't really see it as important to demand that people be more accepting of whatever objectionable kink I may have, when there are RL victims of those actions who have to live with the scars perhaps all their lives. |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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Wait, what? Please explain this in greater detail, because that sounds totally out of line to me. Incest, when consensual, is...well, consensual. And I don't even necessarily mean incestuous sex, since I know the problems that can lead to, I just mean, for example, a brother and sister who legitimately fall romantically in love with each other.
I don't think you quite understood me on that one (to be fair, I should have clarified the following point better). It's not just having issues with it; that much is fine and I can understand. It's "this contains incest so therefore it is terrible and I am offended and disgusted." Yes, this happens, and I'm pretty sure I've even seen reviews here on ANN that say stuff like that. It's the complete inability to think that, hey, maybe this is stuff that, although not usually accurately depicted in anime (lol what is?), can actually happen in real life. Because it does happen in real life, as you have apparently witnessed. You can dislike the subject material of something but still be able to accept it, per se. It can get hypocritical when you think of it. How many people do you think believe murder is acceptable? Not many, if any, I imagine, and yet no one complains when murder is present in fiction. It can even be used for comedy, and I for one would say the results are probably a lot worse than two blood-relatives falling in love with each other. So why does one constantly get a pass while the other is often criticized for even being used? It can be murder, rape, adultery, etc. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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dandelion_rose
Posts: 657 Location: Kuala Lumpur |
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It's not something 'the world may never know'. It's extremely easy to find information about incest and its effect on people. The United States has some of the better support networks for incest survivors in the world. As long as you are involved in some form of volunteer work that deals even slightly with gender issues, you will eventually encounter this.
But I've long come to the conclusion that for some anime fans, their life really is a cocoon, with very little exposure to the world beyond the consumption of anime as media and the social circles that surround it. And so it's a lot more common to find people arguing hypothetically from their computers rather than hearing people who've been involved in work or recovery in this fandom. This isn't just related to incest, just the general atmosphere and directions some of the threads can go. (Despite that, I don't really have an issue with incest as a kink or fantasy.) On the issue of not being 'open-minded' enough -- there are times when the entertainment industry really produces something that can only be enjoyable only if you're into the premise. In Western cinema the obvious genre for this would be something like torture porn. I doubt very many of us would say that one can enjoy something like Cannibal Holocaust if only one kept an open mind. Also, on the subject of films, there are some films that I think are really good -- I'm thinking of Scarface, the later one with Al Pacino and Michelle Pfeiffer -- but with objectionable material that is so strong that it completely eclipses any other 'neutral' elements of the film. You really need to have a stomach for it; at one point one character is killed by being sawn with a chainsaw while he is still alive. (Several members of the audience walked out). When it comes to imouto stuff, there's a very clear audience for it, and sometimes there are stuff riding on the imouto concept that makes it only enjoyable if you're into it. Admittedly, I've only been exposed to Koi Kaze, Aki Sora, and Nakaimo. While there's enough in Koi Kaze for someone who isn't into the imouto stuff can get into Koi Kaze, I don't think that really holds for the others. Your ability to enjoy something like Aki Sora and Nakaimo is directly related to your ability to stomach the premise. And, I don't particularly have issues with a reviewer saying that they just don't have the stomach for something because they're not part of that niche that the form of entertainment is targeting. I've mentioned my love for Roger Ebert before -- he very clearly dislikes violence in films. At times, he's given low ratings to films that are, to him, pointlessly violent despite the high quality of the film's production. When a reviewer dismisses a show because they cannot stomach the premise, I still find their reviews worth reading. A part of the value of reading a review is to experience watching a show vicariously through the reviewer. When we watch something for entertainment, we don't watch something like robots -- we don't process technical details and get them all to come together in our brain. We respond emotionally, intuitively. Being sickened by a premise is part of our intuition. I would go ahead and say that for some niche entertainers, being sickened by the premise is part of the goal. So to me, when a reviewer says 'I'm sickened by this. Sorry, I can't get over the premise' I don't see it as being 'close-minded'. I see it as a genuine part of the viewing experience. |
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Polycell
Posts: 4623 |
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So basically, I was throwing out that there was no way we could ever take it beyond the realm of the hypothetical. It seemed like a good idea at the time. |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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You're putting words in my mouth again. They don't have to like it; it's about the ability to identify why they don't like it, because not liking something isn't the same as it being bad. |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
 Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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Incest is just a taboo subject that's hard to talk about period and anime, visual novels/eroge and manga have never touched on the issue seriously. The only three I can think of are kana my imouto, aki sora, yousga no sora. To be honest that's sad to only only three titles of thousands that try to explain this way of thinking. A bit of side-track the only incest anime I have to see that the community accepts if it involves a first cousin/child hood friend in romance/sol/drama series such as kanon, canvas 2 and dacapo. |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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This is probably because such relationships between cousins aren't taboo in Japan. |
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Takokujin
 Posts: 266 |
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It's pretty rampant down here in the South as well. |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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Yeah I realize that I'm just saying that even western fans are more open minded to that kind of relationship than brother/sister. |
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Maigraith
Posts: 80 |
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...so what you're saying is it's not possible to tell if incest is actually bad for the people involved because all we see are the abusive cases? I gotta call BS on that, the internet has allowed people in incestuous relationships to find other incest pairs and talk about their issues and whatnot, all sorts of websites and forums out there. Personally, I don't think consensual incest is bad, the problem is a lot of it isn't consensual, and all of those bad ones taint any image people have of them as a whole. It's hard to think of any nice things about an issue that has so much bad surrounding it.
This statement makes no sense to me. They don't have to like it but they have to know why they don't like it, but the person does know why they don't like it, them finding the premise to be skeevy isn't enough of a reason? |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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not liking something isn't the same as it being bad. I don't like yaoi, but I don't dismiss something as a piece of trash whenever gay men show up. I hate watching live sports games, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people who like to and don't believe it's a bad form of entertainment for those who enjoy it. I realize that just because I don't like something does not always mean there is something wrong with it. Crap exists, but a lot of people can't separate what is crap because of bad writing, direction, etc. and what they just personally don't like to see. |
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LUNI_TUNZ
 Posts: 809 |
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There's a tiny difference between sport and blood relatives doing the horizontal monster mash, though. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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In a work of fiction? Not really. |
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