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Annf



Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 578
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:41 am Reply with quote
I love time travel stories, naked girls, Poyoyon Rock, Halko Momoi, and dandelions, so I'm going to have to say that Popotan is pretty awesome.
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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: USA
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:46 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:

But quite often loli = subset(moe)

Fans of moe in general ought to join the wish that lolicon would never get licensed, to avoid getting tarred with the same brush.


While most would think that if you like moe your a loli fan, there are some who wouldn't think that. While yes some moe fans would wish that lolicon not get licensed there are those than don't think that same way.

eyeresist wrote:

PetrifiedJello wrote:
But this leads me to another question which anyone at ANN can answer if they choose to. I'd like to know how "loli" or even some "moe" has become "wank fest" material. Do you peep in windows while fans are watching, get word on the street, or are just making a huge assumption?

Um, perhaps you're not familiar with the origin of the term "loli". It derives from Nabokov's novel Lolita, about a professor who seduces a young girl (aged 12 in the book). The name Lolita quickly entered the lexicon as a term for an underage female sex object. It's a standard term in pron, both for fantasy works using actresses of legal age, and for actual child pron. The term's use in Japan is very similar - if someone is "lolicon", they have a "Lolita complex", that is they are sexually focused on young girls. So loli manga/anime/games are wank material, by definition.


I generally don't see Moe and loli as wank material, mainly because I am not "aroused" by it, so I can watch it and not view it as wank material. Though I am going to have to ask the same question as PJ as to why some of it became "wank material"

EDIT: fixed HTML.


Last edited by asimpson2006 on Mon May 17, 2010 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:54 am Reply with quote
eyeresist wrote:
moe ≠ loli

little girls ≠ loli

Quote:
Um, perhaps you're not familiar with the origin of the term "loli".

Perhaps you've misunderstood the purpose of the question?

Let me ask it differently: little girl wears a bikini in an anime series. Lolicon (sexual object) or not?

Therein lies the question's intent. It seems to me the term "lolicon" is taking a new generic term to include any little girl in a series despite the lack of sexual content.

Given how "lolicon" was derived, I'm at a loss why people automatically assume the roles of little girls in anime instantly means they're for the benefit of the audience to "wank off".

I don't think this at all, and that's why I get a little upset when someone else does, and passes this viewpoint off to trash a series.

This particular element of anime has an impact in that those who enjoy a series labeled as "lolicon" find themselves as the target by those who feel the series only panders to "wankers".

I enjoyed Strike Witches. This may come as a shock to many, many fans, but it was because of the story premise and not the panty shots.

Stop and think about how people feel when the rest of the anime fandom thinks it's only to cater to lolicons so they can "wank off".

I think Rin Kokonoe is gorgeously cute. It doesn't mean I enjoy lolicon. It just means I look at her in the same manner I would as any other little girl, real or not, who is just cute. Damn, is that even possible without the rest of the world believing the only reason we think they're cute is so we can bang them? That's just idiotic.
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Brand



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 1026
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:57 am Reply with quote
I don't listen to these until Monday (because hey I need something to do at work) but have to say I really enjoyed this episode. Also the Heat Guy J at the end had me cracking up.
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rabrek



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 188
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:29 pm Reply with quote
brand wrote:
I don't listen to these until Monday (because hey I need something to do at work) but have to say I really enjoyed this episode. Also the Heat Guy J at the end had me cracking up.


It was a long show - didn't feel long, mind you - so I finished listening to it at work myself. Kept thinking something was missing... then it closed with "Heat Guy J" and all was well with the world.

I really enjoyed hearing from the ANN columnists. In fact, I think it might be a nice idea to check in like this periodically, to hear what people are up to, and get their observations on recent issues. (Quarterly, perhaps?) Just a thought.
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Annf



Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 578
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:25 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
It seems to me the term "lolicon" is taking a new generic term to include any little girl in a series despite the lack of sexual content.

Yeah I've noticed that as well.
The most ridiculous version of that is people referring to children in real life as "real lolis." Ok, guys...

I get the impression it's a kind of joke meme, as in "sexualizing children is wrong and therefore funny."
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4nBlue





PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:39 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Therein lies the question's intent. It seems to me the term "lolicon" is taking a new generic term to include any little girl in a series despite the lack of sexual content.
Lolicon hasn't required sexual content for a long time.
http://ogiuemaniax.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/the-lolicon-of-1982/
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:22 pm Reply with quote
4nBlue wrote:
Lolicon hasn't required sexual content for a long time.

Hence why it's so diluted, which it shouldn't be. I don't think appreciating the way a character looks makes someone a lolicon.
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 598
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:31 pm Reply with quote
Pixy Misa wrote:
Your review is wrong, and you are a bad person. No, wait, that's what I said to Gerald for not liking Princess Tutu.

I love Princess Tutu. Am I redeemed or just breaking even?

PetrifiedJello wrote:
I think Rin Kokonoe is gorgeously cute. It doesn't mean I enjoy lolicon. It just means I look at her in the same manner I would as any other little girl, real or not, who is just cute. Damn, is that even possible without the rest of the world believing the only reason we think they're cute is so we can bang them? That's just idiotic.

Try using a phrase like, "She has a great character design".
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:42 pm Reply with quote
Nice episode. It was good to hear from more members of the ANN staff, Theron included, and I was particularly surprised to find out that David writes for Colony Drop.

That blog does have some consistently great writing and manages to remain intellectually stimulating in spite of its no-holds-barred rhetoric. That said, I usually find myself agreeing with their larger points but taking issue with some of the specifics involved from time to time, which I guess is inevitable.

On a different note, I've been wanting to see Birdy the Mighty Decode for some time now. Just as well, I'm frankly undecided -as opposed to uninterested- about Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. I guess I'll wait and see how it ends now that the finale is around the corner.

I remember checking out the Ninja Consultants podcast once or twice and liking what I heard...but for some reason (...maybe I didn't suscribe to the feed?) I totally forgot it existed. Better make up for that. Wink

I'm not into toys that much as an adult, which is technically a good thing, beyond just keeping some pieces of my childhood in storage somewhere for the sake of nostalgia. Can't really see myself picking up the hobby at this point.

I don't know if Theron is right about Koi Kaze, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Though unless it has a truly mature take on the obviously creepy subject matter and the writing backs that up as seriously as possible, the whole thing just sounds like it would be fighting an uphill battle. Still, I won't write it off for now.

As for the whole moe debate, its continued proliferation is definitely bad for the industry and you won't find me arguing otherwise. However, at this point in time it's unfortunately become something that I've had to learn to live with...at least for as long as the current trend lasts. If there's more to this or that specific anime than just a bunch of cute girls doing cute things, I'll usually give it a chance. If there isn't and the whole point of the show is to implicitly or explicitly sexualize underage characters, then I'm not going to waste my time. That's really all there is to it. Don't censor it but don't throw it my way either.

Finally, I've been spoiled on the ending to Battlestar Galactica elsewhere, but regardless of that I do want to see the first couple of seasons and see if it really does live up to all the praise and subsequent hype. Haven't really paid that much attention to live action science fiction after Babylon 5.
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:17 pm Reply with quote
Quote:

Yeah I've noticed that as well.
The most ridiculous version of that is people referring to children in real life as "real lolis." Ok, guys...

I get the impression it's a kind of joke meme, as in "sexualizing children is wrong and therefore funny."


Holy crap, it annoys me when people refer to any young female character (or actual people) as "lolis". You're absolutely correct about this.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's a joke. It seems like "loli" has just become internet slang for "young girl" which to me is kind of like referring to all women as porn actresses (and about as mysogynistic as well).

About the whole "moe=loli" thing. I agree that you shouldn't really equate the two and I can see why people were annoyed at Zac doing it in this episode.

At the same time, the two do often go hand in hand, and there are frequently lolicon undercurrents even in "clean" moe shows.
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 17006
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:30 pm Reply with quote
nightjuan wrote:
I don't know if Theron is right about Koi Kaze, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Though unless it has a truly mature take on the obviously creepy subject matter and the writing backs that up as seriously as possible, the whole thing just sounds like it would be fighting an uphill battle. Still, I won't write it off for now.

The writing for the series gets such high praise from me because it does precisely that. You will likely not find a more serious and delicately-handled treatment of the subject matter (well, as long as you ignore the incongruously silly Next Episode bits) anywhere on film or digital file - not just anime.

rabrek wrote:
I really enjoyed hearing from the ANN columnists. In fact, I think it might be a nice idea to check in like this periodically, to hear what people are up to, and get their observations on recent issues. (Quarterly, perhaps?) Just a thought.

I would not be averse to a brief once-a-quarter check-in.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5064
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:25 pm Reply with quote
I really loved the new take on Battlestar Galactica, and I throughly enjoyed the series. Just hated the very end of it, when they ripped off Gallforce. Number 9 and Baltar, the cruel gods who gladly drive humanity and cyclons back to nature and survivalism and doom them to repeat the cycle over again.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 17006
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:30 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
I really loved the new take on Battlestar Galactica, and I throughly enjoyed the series. Just hated the very end of it, when they ripped off Gallforce.


Gall Force was hardly the first sci fi title to use that particular plot gimmick.
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Takeyo



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 736
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:33 pm Reply with quote
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