Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3883 Location: New York state. |
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Well... I guess it's time to feed the lambs to the slaughter.
Match A-15: Fakir (Princess Tutu) A potential top-runner for the bracket considering the large amount of growth his character went through from being overprotective of Mytho and lashing out at others to becoming one of Duck's major allies in the second half of the series when he comes to learn of his family roots. Match A-16: Piccolo Jr. (Dragonball franchise) Match A-17: Sawako Kuronuma (Kimi ni Todoke) Match A-18: Eva Heinemann (Monster) Would consider Eva one of the bracket's top-runners as well, considering she goes from a completely selfish and unlikeable character to a caring woman who tries doing what she can to clear Dr. Tenma of the crimes he didn't commit after coming to terms with the hatred she bared for him. Match A-19: Yukino Miyazawa (Kare Kano) Match A-20: Taichi Mashima (Chihiyafuru) Match A-21: Daikichi Kawachi (Usagi Drop) Match A-22: Tatsuhiro Satou (Welcome to the NHK) |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Aww crap, I thought I still had an extra day to vote. Darn it.
I really hope no-one tries to use that reasoning. Not only is it lazy, it doesn't take into account that many of the seeds got far more votes in the nominations phase than they actually deserve. That's because some franchises are far more well-known than others, and so some seeds are simply there on name-recognition than actual merit. For my Minigame I have a number of seeds going down in round two. Not only do I believe they aren't as good as their seeding would suggest, but there were also some strong candidates who didn't get that many votes in the nominations phase because few people had watched them. I think as the arguments for and against are put forward, some seeds are going to be staring at a fast exit. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6528 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Group A-9
Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory Fakir, Princess Tutu. I nominated both candidates and, while I think Ayaka Steiger is a worthy entrant who deserves to progress beyond the second round, unfortunately she has come up against someone altogether out of her league. While Ayaka’s change from misguided villain to supportive ally is convincingly well written, Fakir’s from creep to selfless hero is nigh on inspirational. I also want to comment on Key’s editing of my nomination of Fakir – he has changed the picture and omitted text. Both are germane to the case I want to make. I accept that the quality of my picture had its shortcomings (and Key’s choice is good in giving a general impression of the character) but I really want to bring the omitted text to people’s attention. It is central to why people hold Fakir in such high regard and how far his improvement goes. …[he] demonstrates perhaps the most extraordinary example of pure, unconditional love I've ever seen in anime… The DVD has a film of the American voice actress who plays Duck as she is recording her dialogue for the scene. She breaks down. Those who have completed the series will know exactly why. Group A-10 Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise vs. Chi, Chobits Chi, Chobits Group A-11 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You Group A-12 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Eva Heinemann, Monster Group A-13 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances Group A-14 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Group A-15 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Group A-16 Clare, Claymore vs. Satou Tatsuhiro, Welcome to the NHK Clare, Claymore. I’ve seen both. To me there is no doubt that Clare’s change from monster to human is substantial. Satou’s change is less so, which is in keeping with the pessimistic tone of Welcome to the NHK. For sure, he has got himself employment and cares deeply for Misaki but the pair's underlying psychoses remain fundamentally intact. The anime has an open ending in that we can only ponder whether their “mutually assured destruction” pact will be enough to get them through life. Don’t get me wrong. I believe Satou improves but Welcome to the NHK is ambivalent about how far it extends and whether he will have a successful life. Satou himself sums it up well in the last minutes of the last episode. "In the end not a single one of our problems was solved. From here on, too, we’ll probably be whispering “I can’t, I can’t” every day while we go on living. But still… Yeah! I don’t know how long it will hold up, but I’ll give it a try as best I can." Last edited by Errinundra on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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Yes that is a conflict and a sad fact for Noriko. By no means a bad choice and I didn't want to dissuade people if they felt Noriko was the better choice. By all means stick with who you feel is THE BEST CHOICE in your mind for the match up. But the point I made, and have made in past tournaments and part of why I stopped participating, was that people need to go with the best choice. Not my best choice or yours, but their own. If they feel candidate A is better then vote for candidate A. Don't go for B because A has 30 votes to B's 2. Pity, sympathy, consolation, etc votes to me go against the spirit of the tournament. And in some cases can actually skew the voting from them on. Whether or not the best pick in your mind wins by 30 or just 3 you (everyone) should go with who you honestly feel is the best. People obviously will disagree on candidates based on personal beliefs but if you stick with who you feel is best it makes the tournament more....pure for lack of a better word. I would have been sad if Vegeta lost but I would have accepted it myself personally without an issue if I knew those that voted for Noriko did so out of the pure and honest intent. That Noriko was who they honestly felt was better. The same would go for ANY matchup. I'll hush myself now and just go back to voting. I do agree though that matchup should have been closer as I think it was the best match up of the round. Would have been nice to have it be a bit closer at the end. I do hope the matchup encourages people to go see Gunbuster. An old favorite of mine so it's nice to see it get some love. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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In that case, can I suggest "decided due to coin toss" also be invalidated as justification? |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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I personally dislike this reasoning as well. The official ruling is that you can use it, but it doesn't count towards the number of votes you need to justify for that round. Coin flip in all honesty should never be used. If you don't know either party, read the arguments and guides; they are here for a reason. |
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Group A-9
Fakir, Princess Tutu I'm actually watching Kurau right now thanks to this tournament and while Ayaka's improvement is sufficient to merit participation, she can't stand up to Fakir. Group A-10 Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise I'm not a big DBZ fan but Piccolo has some solid improvement, this is no contest. Group A-11 Eureka, Eureka 7 Group A-12 Eva Heinemann, Monster Group A-13 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances I have not seen His and Her Circumstance, but I don't really think Haruka is a very strong contender despite being a strong character. Group A-14 Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho I admit I'm a bit ambivilent on this match. Taichi's a good guy with some improvement, but Hiei sounds like a stronger candidate even though I'm unfamiliar with YYH. For now, I'll go with Hiei unless someone can give a good case for Taichi. Group A-15 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop I think these are both good candidates, but going to favor Daikichi in this one, I really like his character development/improvement a lot. Group A-16 Clare, Claymore By the end of WttNHK Satou has improved--if nothing else he seems to be caring about bettering himself and his situation enough to do something about it--but I think Clare's journey is more substantial. |
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st_owly
 Posts: 5234 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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Group A-9: Voting for Fakir. Not having seen the show, his description and others' comments have swayed me in his favour.
Group A-10: Voting for Chi Group A-11: Voting for Sawako Group A-12: Voting for Eva Group A-13: Voting for Haruka I don't think Yukino changes that much in the anime, compared to the manga, and since this tournament is based off anime series only, my vote goes to Haruka. Group A-14: Voting for Taichi He seems to grow and mature more. Group A-15: Voting for Daikichi This was tough, but Daikichi just won to me. Group A-16: Voting for Clare errinundra's write up convinced me that Clare was the most improved of the pair. I've not seen either show. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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I wanted to take my time and think of some of these, but errinundra forced my hand, so I'm not going to get to as much as I wanted to. Maybe if I have enough time I will go back and write more.
Group A-9 Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory Voting for Fakir, Princess Tutu. Group A-10 Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise vs. Chi, Chobits Voting for Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball Group A-11 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Voting for Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You Group A-12 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Voting for Gaara, Naruto Group A-13 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances Voting for Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances Group A-14 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho Voting for Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho I have a really hard time voting for Taichi. I love Chihayafuru, but his development is still ongoing. We have yet to see how he will handle what happens if Arata returns. Also his motivations can be called into question. In the latest episode the new female member points out that she wants to get good at Karuta so that Taichi will notice her just as he wants to get really good so that Chihaya will notice him. I just don't think Taichi has been tested in what really counts. Can he love both Karuta and Chihaya or is his interest in Karuta only because of Chihaya? Can he continue to play Karuta if he was to be rejected by Chihaya? There's imho many questions that the show has not yet answered in regards to Taichi's development to warrant his advancement. Group A-15 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Voting for Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Group A-16 Clare, Claymore vs. Satou Tatsuhiro, Welcome to the NHK Voting for Satou Tatsuhiro, Welcome to the NHK. I humbly disagree with errinundra's interpretation.
I really enjoy Claymore and Clare improves in power level without a doubt, but I'm less impressed with power levels than how a character grows internally. Clare from the beginning is focused on revenge and in spite of her cool demeanor it affects her thinking and decisions. In the scene with Claymore Irene she is found to be incompatible with spoiler[the Quick Sword technique] because inside she is not calm but full of emotion. Clare is boiling over with rage, but masks it well as Theresa's cool haughty demeanor is probably her inspiration. Throughout the show Clare is shown to be quite willing to kill her self or ready to throw her humanity away. She can be reckless and impulsive (the manga goes a little further to explain this), but what keeps Clare from becoming a monster? Its mostly everyone around her. Galatea at one point keeps her from slipping to the other side because Clare's rage has gotten the best of her. Raki and Jean do the same, but more on an emotional level. Furthermore, Clare doesn't really question her desire for revenge and if its worth her humanity, she does justify it though. Welcome to the NHK is all about internal and psychological struggle. Satou struggles with delusions, paranoia and social anxiety. He has become a shut-in only leaving his apartment for food. In Welcome to the NHK Satou is like an addict that is starting on the road to recovery and along that bumpy road he falls off the wagon a few times (some for the amusement of the viewers). For example, when attending a class he demonstrates that he is intelligent, but then his paranoia and anxieties kick-in to turn the situation upside down. He has delusions of grandeur where he will create spoiler[an eroge-game, but instead becomes addicted to internet porn while doing "research"]. By the end of the show he has started to interact with people more, resolved some issues and most importantly he has a more realistic view of his situation as opposed to denying it, running away from it or having a delusional one. His last lines at the end are important in this regard, because he is acknowledging that they may fall off the wagon again, but this is an important step towards recovery/sobriety. Sure, the show doesn't resolve everyone's problems completely in a nice neat bow, which I don't think should be held against it. However, the change in his thinking is a substantial improvement from the hole he was living in at the beginning and the inertia that kept him from leaving his apartment. I find his struggles with his problems much more human and real than Clare not turning into a monster. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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For those who might not have seen my earlier note about it, the link issue has been corrected. Now onto voting:
Group A-9 Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory Ayaka Steiger is a great supporting character. In a sense she reminds me a lot of Javert from Les Miserables; she doesn't act out of malice, but rather out of a dogged determination to uphold the law and protect citizenry from dangerous elements. Unlike Javert, however, she is able to make a change when her whole world falls apart as an adult, admit that she was approaching things wrongly, and change her attitude. She's also able to eventually overcome a lingering, devastating tragedy which she comments on a couple of occasions has left "a hole in her heart" and end up with a proper family in the end. In fact, I'd choose her over all but maybe 3-4 others remaining in this Group. Sadly, she will get crushed here, as she not only ran into one of those 3-4 but also into what is possibly the worst-cast match-up in the entire tournament for her, as Fakir does everything that she does in an improvement sense and much more. Going from being an obstruction to the heroine to the chief force enabling the heroine to succeed, while also totally remaking his purpose and approach to his role in the story, is so truly remarkable that I can't imagine anyone who has seen Princess Tutu voting against him this early. Group A-10 Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise vs. Chi, Chobits Wasn't all that impressed with Chi last round, and Piccolo Jr. has substantial enough merits anyway that going the anti-vote route isn't necessary. Group A-11 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Have not seen more than an episode or two of KnT, but given how overrated I think Eureka is here and Sawako's Guide entry, she seems worthy. Group A-12 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster The write-up for Eva makes her change seem drastic but happening fairly abruptly. That doesn't make her a better choice than Gaara, who transforms himself even more radically: he goes from an "only act for myself" villain to a responsible leader/defender of an entire village. Group A-13 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances Not especially impressed with Yukino here, but I'm less impressed with Haruka. Group A-14 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho This one I'm open to being convinced about since I'm not familiar with either and there's been very little vote justification here so far. I'm going with Taichi for the moment on the strength of his Guide entry, but if someone has seen both and can argue a good case the other way then I might heed it. Group A-15 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop While not the strongest of candidates, Daikichi gets the edge because his growth into becoming a parent makes him one of the most distinctively different choices in the field and shapes the entire series. Group A-16 Clare, Claymore vs. Satou Tatsuhiro, Welcome to the NHK How much does Satou actually improve over the course of the series? The plot is initially supposed to be about him being coaxed out of being a hikkikomori, but for most of the series he gets worse if anything. When his improvement does finally happen, it's only because his survival literally depends on it, and I recall complaints about how the change in his situation was unbelievably sudden. And really, how much does he actually have his act together at the end? Clare, though, shows improvement that is substantial, satisfying, and incontrovertible. (And that's without factoring in her increases in powers and abilities.) Although the most dramatic improvement comes at the end, the foundation for it has been lain all series and by everyone she meets. She's primed for making that final jump to securing the humanity that she lost, so when she finally steps back from the brink at the end and accepts what people have been trying to do for her, it's a major step forward. She's well worthy of continuing to advance and far easier to justify than Satou. (And only focusing on the anime content actually helps her, since her regaining her humanity is portrayed better in the anime and she essentially plateaus at the point in the manga where the anime ends.) EDIT: I started writing this before One-Eye's votes came up, so even though this was not designed as a rebuttal to those comments for D-16, please consider it as such. The difference in our arguments really mostly comes down to how one interprets different points of emphasis in each series, but I strongly question that Satou was internalizing his changes in the end as much as he's being given credit for. Also, I had a sense at the end of Claymore that Clare was moving on to a new stage in her life, while Satou had only just taken a step forward. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group A-9
Fakir, Princess Tutu While Ayaka sounds like a fair decent entry at this level, she's unfortunately come up against one of the strongest contestants, IMO. At the beginning of the series, Fakir is really difficult to like since his behavior towards Mytho at very least borderline abusive (and I would argue beyond borderline but that's a debate for another day). However, eventually we not only realize the reasons for his actions and why he felt they were justified but see him grow and become not only a likeable character but one of the strongest, most likeable ones in the series. His arc is pretty damn incredible and I see no reason to vote against him in this round and for the next one, at least. Group A-10 Chi, Chobits If the support for Piccolo Jr turns out to be as strong as the support for Vegeta was, I may reconsider this but I still don't have the problems with Chi that others had in the previous rounds and consider her a worthy candidate of moving on. Group A-11 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You I'm not as huge a fan of this series as other people I know of but what I know of Sawako makes her strong enough to get my vote here. Group A-12 Eva Heinemann, Monster I haven't seen Monster yet but I've been meaning to for ages and characters like Eva are one of the reasons I'm drawn to it so much. Group A-13 Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances More a vote against Haruka, who was a decent enough first round candidate but ultimately doesn't quite have enough to her to justify any further votes. Group A-14 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru Hiei barely made it through the last round and I never saw any arguments that convinced me he should have managed that much, whereas Taichi is a character I actually know and whose development I quite enjoy. Group A-15 Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop This is an interesting match-up of adoptive fathers. However, it's been said before that Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette focuses more on Cosette than Valjean (as the title suggests) and I think a lot of his victory last time had more to do with people familiar with either the source material or the musical. Thus Daikichi gets my vote for just having more to him, at least from what I can tell based on comments from people who have seen the Cosette series. Group A-16 Clare, Claymore This one was definitely the trickiest decision of this round because I know and love Welcome to the NHK and am unfamiliar with Claymore. However, ultimately I was won over by the strength of arguments for Clare, as well as some reservations I've had about Satou since his nomination as to whether he really improved enough. Against a weaker candidate, he would probably have my vote but Clare is clearly no pushover and ultimately I'm going to go with the unknown. Edit:In the earlier rounds, I tend to make my votes without looking at other arguments, so when I initially made my decision I hadn't seen what errinundra wrote about Satou. But I 100% agree with it, that reasoning is the same as mine but said much more eloquently. Last edited by marie-antoinette on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I realised it later on. I should have checked the info link earlier instead of thinking that anime creators made some 'interesting' improvements. 
Group A-9 Fakir, Princess Tutu vs. Ayaka Steiger, Kurau Pahntom Memory Fakir Group A-10 Piccolo Jr.,, Dragonball franchise vs. Chi, Chobits Piccolo Jr., Group A-11 Sawako Kuronuma, Kimi ni Todoke – From Me to You vs. Eureka, Eureka 7 Eureka Group A-12 Gaara, Naruto franchise vs. Eva Heinemann, Monster Eva Heinemann Gaara doesn't stand a chance. He changes drastically, but Eve also has undergone a drastic improvement. Besides, she has the advantage of being from a better told series, so her development is handled in a far more interesting way and her relationship with the main character is more complex and intriguing. While Tenma acts as a catalyst for her change, it doesn't follow a generic pattern.
She doesn't change abruptly. I should have rewritten it a bit. Anyway, it is a series of events that leads to her change. The relationship with the guy who refuses to kill her simply tips the balance and pushes her in the right direction. Group A-13 Haruka Suzumiya, Rumbling Hearts vs. Yukino Miyazawa, His and Her Circumstances Yukino Miyazawa Group A-14 Taichi Mashima, Chihiyafuru vs. Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho Taichi Mashima Group A-15 Jean Valjean, Les Miserables Shoujo Cosette vs. Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop Jean Valjean I am voting for him, mostly because I know the book and I am not familiar with the other one. If I see compelling arguments why I should vote for Daikichi rather than Jean Valjean, I may rethink it. For now Jean Valjean's change from a criminal to an admirable person is enough to make me vote for him. Group A-16 Clare, Claymore vs. Satou Tatsuhiro, Welcome to the NHK Satou Tatsuhiro Last edited by Aylinn on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:27 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Aylinn, you missed voting in A-14.
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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Thank you for informing me, marie-antoinette 
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