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GiriOni



Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:03 pm Reply with quote
DissonanceCog wrote:

Sorry, but I'm going to need to stop you there. ...


I already mentioned that the anime fails in a sense. It's just too many people are equating the anime as the story. When actually the LN is the original. So their argument of Index as a story can't come from the anime when half the story is missing. (Not to mention the second and fourth arcs are different in a lot of ways)

As for what Touma's hand works on, just construct a sheet of what it works against and what it doesn't. There are explanations why it doesn't work. One of the big ones I hear is the beam at the end of the first arc that index shoots. That is explained by it being a constant stream of magic being shot out at from a source, but his hand comes into contact with the beam and not the source, thus the beam continues to hit his fist.

Now it's not easy finding out why it works. And if I missed a big one, that seems to be a big inconsistency, just post it here, and I'll either be proven wrong, or I might have an explanation.

And I HATE to break it to everyone... can you tell me a time when Touma blocks a 'real' railgun and not a large beam of lightning? Even as a fan I didn't realize that I couldn't remember Touma doing this until just recently. Also since Misaka fires the lightning and goes through the motions of firing it off, one can easily tell when its coming. As for where, research lightning rods, that explains that he doesn't need to know the where.

Index gives 'heavy' amounts of explanation on certain parts so that the reader can not only understand whats happening and why, but then use both ideas of logic (science and magic) to determine other events. (like Touma's hand, which happens to be a mystery and is for the reader to determine until Kazuma reveals the solution, like the murderer being revealed at the end of a mystery novel) Do you want Kazuma to take your hand and walk you through the story? I most certainly don't.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

no it never has gone into full detail why he has this power but that makes it half the fun for me.


Why he has the power isn't the problem.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:10 pm Reply with quote
GiriOni wrote:
Do you want Kazuma to take your hand and walk you through the story? I most certainly don't.


I would like him to not be a hack.

Also I'll just leave this here.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3733
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:42 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

no it never has gone into full detail why he has this power but that makes it half the fun for me.


Why he has the power isn't the problem.


That's not what I'm getting from a majority of the posters like fenecdude or dtm on his power. Even I'll admit that it's plot hack but don't nearly all mc's have this? Hell dragon ball had magic that would bring anyone back to life or even create livable planets.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:49 pm Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:


That's not what I'm getting from a majority of the posters like fenecdude or dtm on his power. Even I'll admit that it's plot hack but don't nearly all mc's have this? Hell dragon ball had magic that would bring anyone back to life or even create livable planets.


This is not a good defense.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3733
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:59 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:


That's not what I'm getting from a majority of the posters like fenecdude or dtm on his power. Even I'll admit that it's plot hack but don't nearly all mc's have this? Hell dragon ball had magic that would bring anyone back to life or even create livable planets.


This is not a good defense.


I don't see why not. Nearly ever single main character in the history of anime has had some kind of plot armor hax that lets him/her overcome his troubles. Simon from gurren lagann just had to believe himself to achieve near god like levels of power. Rika from higurashi got a deus ex machina reset from hanyuu for every arc to overcome fate it's self. I don't really see the difference here expect for the way it's written into the story of index/rail-gun.
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Mikeski



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Minneapolis, MN
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:06 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
Eh, people are assigning way to much "science" to the "scientific" railgun. And to Touma's hand. It's shounen super-heroes-and-magic, and logic doesn't really apply.
The problem is the show expects you to take them seriously and spends an awful lot of time trying to justify them.
I guess I'm just too used to random whatever appearing in any superhero show, whether eastern or western, and regardless of how seriously they take themselves. Especially when it comes to negating powers. (The juggernaut is unstoppable once moving! The blob is unmovable once stopped! What happens when they meet? The answer is in Touma's right hand!)

DissonanceCog wrote:
And I will say that I don't find your explaination particularly compelling.
The absence of any possible compelling explanation is rather the point. Wink
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:17 pm Reply with quote
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

I don't see why not. Nearly ever single main character in the history of anime has had some kind of plot armor hax that lets him/her overcome his troubles. Simon from gurren lagann just had to believe himself to achieve near god like levels of power. Rika from higurashi got a deus ex machina reset from hanyuu for every arc to overcome fate it's self. I don't really see the difference here expect for the way it's written into the story of index/rail-gun.


Actually no. Both of those examples flowed logically from the concepts the series worked under and were used consistently.

They didn't have to make logical sense in the real world, they just had to within the context of the story that was being told.
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GiriOni



Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:33 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

I don't see why not. Nearly ever single main character in the history of anime has had some kind of plot armor hax that lets him/her overcome his troubles. Simon from gurren lagann just had to believe himself to achieve near god like levels of power. Rika from higurashi got a deus ex machina reset from hanyuu for every arc to overcome fate it's self. I don't really see the difference here expect for the way it's written into the story of index/rail-gun.


Actually no. Both of those examples flowed logically from the concepts the series worked under and were used consistently.

They didn't have to make logical sense in the real world, they just had to within the context of the story that was being told.


And a city of strong ESPers can't have strong ESPers?


Last edited by GiriOni on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:36 pm Reply with quote
GiriOni wrote:


And a city of strong ESPers can't have strong ESPers?


The science side is the least egregious, except Kamachi tends to over-explain and thus things begin to not make sense in an annoying way.

But we're talking about Touma, not the espers.
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Mikeski



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Minneapolis, MN
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:43 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Also I'll just leave this here.

That telefragging scene in the building? That's the point where you know turning off your brain is the only option. Give someone a power that violates the 1st law of thermodynamics (unless you assume some displaced concrete sheets are getting left in not-at-all-a-pseudomagical-handwave-for-srsly 11-space), and you're done. All the magic is magic, all the science is magic, and you can only sit back and enjoy the awesome.

Also (TLDRallofit, sorry, so you may have also mentioned this), there's no thunderous explosions from the vacuum every one of her teleports would leave behind (since they're obviously not moving the displaced matter back to the source), so she apparently creates air to leave behind, too.


Last edited by Mikeski on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3733
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:45 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:

I don't see why not. Nearly ever single main character in the history of anime has had some kind of plot armor hax that lets him/her overcome his troubles. Simon from gurren lagann just had to believe himself to achieve near god like levels of power. Rika from higurashi got a deus ex machina reset from hanyuu for every arc to overcome fate it's self. I don't really see the difference here expect for the way it's written into the story of index/rail-gun.


Actually no. Both of those examples flowed logically from the concepts the series worked under and were used consistently.

They didn't have to make logical sense in the real world, they just had to within the context of the story that was being told.


It has been constant from the very episode where misaka was chasing him on a bridge shooting lighting bolts canceling out her attack. Then there was the test index's holy rope that blew to pieces when he touche it with said hand. His right hand has the ability to cancel out/block/stop all esper and magical abilities.

How is this so hard to follow??? I'll admit there has been some plot holes but it's always been consistent on what touma is capable of. Sadly why can't people just enjoy this show instead of bringing logic into this.
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rinkwolf10



Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 750
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:48 pm Reply with quote
.... I surprised this is till going on. I mean like most have started to forget this is ANIME, half the time if not almost all the time things don't make sense and have plot holes. Why do people get so anal about Index in question.

Just think about this rationally, you are arguing about the "logic" of a novel about superpower teens and their endevores. Index is not trying to win "best thought out science fiction award" (if such an award exists) or anything like that. If you thought that it was, then you are sadly mistaken.

Index's selling point is their characters (diversity there off) and their interaction with one another. That is the true prize. Not the science in the show (it is just a catalist for things to get moving in the show), I would enjoy the show just as much if they stepped away from that aspect and move the show to a more of a show about all the characters interacting. Heck, that is more or less what Railgun does and people claim it to be the superior of the two for that reason.

The only reason I liked Index better is because I like Touma's character and when he was not present in Railgun, it felt weaker to me (his present's meant comic relief or action). I liked how strong willed he was and the twist of spoiler[him losing his memory] makes him that much more enjoyable and more fleshed out character.

I liked the fleshing out of Accelerator as a character. The whole Totally-bad-guy-no-way-he-is-actually-good was given a twist and I liked the execution of it all.

I know I enjoyed the show and that is all that matters in the end.


Last edited by rinkwolf10 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DissonanceCog



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:53 pm Reply with quote
GiriOni wrote:

I already mentioned that the anime fails in a sense. It's just too many people are equating the anime as the story. When actually the LN is the original. So their argument of Index as a story can't come from the anime when half the story is missing. (Not to mention the second and fourth arcs are different in a lot of ways)


Well, it's good that we can agree the anime failed, at least in that respect.

Anyway, that equivocation is happening because we're talking about the anime, and not the LNs. We have to have them operate as independent entities, because that's essentially what they function as.

In other words: We're (Well, I, I really can't speak for what other poster's philosophies on the matter are) equating the material in the anime as the story because we're discussing the anime; it really doesn't matter what the LN has to say because I was not told I needed to read the LN before I watched the anime. There wasn't a shot on screen that said "To fully understand this series, read the LNs first." I don't see why I should have to pretend there was- and yes, by jumping in during a critique of the anime saying "Well, in the LNs it all makes sense!" that's kind of the impression you give.

Mikeski wrote:
The absence of any possible compelling explanation is rather the point. Wink


Oh, the point is that it was poorly written? Okay, good. Didn't know we were agreeing on that. Smile
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:54 pm Reply with quote
Rinkwolf wrote:
.... I surprised this is till going on. I mean like most have started this is ANIME, half the time if not almost all the time things don't make sense and have plot holes. Why do people get so anal about Index in question.


A) This isn't true

B) If it were, it would be horrible.

Quote:
Just think about this rationally, you are arguing about the "logic" of a novel about superpower teens and their endevores. Index is not trying to win "best thought out science fiction award" (if such an award exists) or anything like that. If you thought that it was, then you are sadly mistaken.


So its intentionally shitty?

Quote:
Index's selling point is their characters (diversity there off) and their interaction with one another. That is the true prize. Not the science in the show (it is just a catalist for things to get moving in the show), I would enjoy the show just as much if they stepped away from that aspect and move the show to a more of a show about all the characters interacting. Heck, that is more or less what Railgun does and people claim it to be the superior of the two for that reason.


Well you see Railgun has actual character interaction. We spend time with a group of characters, get to know them and see their adventures. Index introduces a half dozen new characters every arc who then get shuffled off to spend time trying to figure out how to run a washing machine or something.

Quote:
The only reason I liked Index better is because I like Touma's character and when he was not present in Railgun, it felt weaker to me (his present's meant comic relief or action). I liked how strong willed he was and the twist of spoiler[him losing his memory] makes him that much more enjoyable and more fleshed out.


The losing his memory plot twist is the worst thing ever. It ends up being almost entirely incidental. You can't even tell half the time!

Quote:
I liked the fleshing out of Accelerator as a character. The whole Totally-bad-guy-no-way-he-is-actually-good was given a twist and I liked the execution of it all.


Yes, totally never done before. Ever. Completely original and not at all expected. (and hell I like Accelerator)

Quote:
I know I enjoyed the show and that is all that matters in the end.


Well yes, and no one is saying you can't like it.
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