View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
RodimusBen
Joined: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 25
Location: Harrisonburg, VA
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:46 am
|
|
|
All of this fuss over a bra being digitally added, WITH the creator's consent? How utterly ridiculous.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:55 am
|
|
|
RodimusBen wrote: | All of this fuss over a bra being digitally added, WITH the creator's consent? How utterly ridiculous. |
This reminds me of the uproar that Toonami got when they digitally edited on bathing suits to that Tenchi Muyo Ryo-Ohki OVA they aired a few years ago. But I can see DH's point about the problem of a series that starts at one level of content ratings only to have it "ramped up" to Adults Only later on. I respect their decision to give the author the power to make the censorship call. but It was never stated just what DH would have done if the author decided not to censor it. The smart thing, if that had happened, would have been to put out a press release warning all book sellers about the ratings change and then clearly highlight the shrink wrap with greater warnings instead of keeping it from the shops altogether. The latter sort of holds a gun to the author's hand saying "you censor it, or we blast it off the self." Either way it's lose-lose.
|
Back to top |
|
|
chloes_fork
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 58
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:43 am
|
|
|
Eh, it's the Shadow Star excuse all over again. Dark Horse may not want to shut out a portion of their readership by going "adults only" with a later volume of an ongoing release, and if you don't think the integrity of creative content should be given absolute primacy, that decision might even seem to make sense.
DH should be aware, though, that they are shutting out another category of readers entirely, those who won't tolerate the editing of content and won't buy releases that include it. And saying that it's done with the artist's consent is not a very satisfying sop, considering that if the artist really wanted it this way he would have drawn it like this in the first place, and that the changes are obviously being done only as a concession to American puritanism and squeamishness.
|
Back to top |
|
|
xstylus
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 263
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:36 am
|
|
|
coolerimmortal wrote: |
It's "scanlation". Not "scannilation".
Why do you loathe scanlations? They're wonderful.
The ones who care would certainly read it online. Where's the "bitter aftertaste" in scanlations?
|
I'd rather not turn this into a debate, but they're effectively bootlegs where nary a penny goes to the artist. Therefore, if you don't care (and in this one rare case, I no longer do), you go for the scanlation. Thanks for the typo correction.
chloes_fork wrote: | DH should be aware, though, that they are shutting out another category of readers entirely, those who won't tolerate the editing of content and won't buy releases that include it. |
It's just proof of how the demographic has changed. Previously, the majority of manga fans had rather purist attitudes and wouldn't have stood for this. Now that it's gone mainstream, that's all changed.
|
Back to top |
|
|
appleturbo
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 51
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:40 pm
|
|
|
I think an alternate edition would make sence if there was a demand for the book.
I don't mean this as poke against the book but if this was a top 10 book and there was proof of the demand that it would sell I think they would consider making another edition.
As it stands I don't think they would consider it just because a few random people scream
Hopefully in the future when manga moves paperless they could just offer a patch that has the edited content.
That would totally rule.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kagemusha
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 2783
Location: Boston
|
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:07 am
|
|
|
Quote: | I think an alternate edition would make sence if there was a demand for the book. |
I suspect that the demand thing was a big part of this decision. I was suprised Exaxxion wasn't cancelled, and it's just limping on (barely) now. A change in rating or the addition of a plastic wrap might discourage alot of comicbook stores (where most of the books are sold) from carrying it, since the sales are already low.
As for the Shadow Star comparison, that was a totally diffrent manner. The graphic content in SS actually had a PURPOSE; the censored content in Exaxxion is fanservice.
|
Back to top |
|
|
chloes_fork
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 58
|
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:09 am
|
|
|
Kagemusha wrote: | As for the Shadow Star comparison, that was a totally diffrent manner. The graphic content in SS actually had a PURPOSE; the censored content in Exaxxion is fanservice. |
Maybe, but the excuse offered by DH for editing the series is basically the same in both cases: we didn't know they were going to get this graphic when they started out and we licensed them. Though in the case of SS, I believe they've said they would have "had" to edit some of the content in any case because of legal concerns over the characters' ages -- never mind that our nation's highest judicial body has already ruled otherwise.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Cowpunk
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 168
Location: Oakland - near the Newtype Lab
|
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:35 pm
|
|
|
chloes_fork wrote: | Though in the case of SS, I believe they've said they would have "had" to edit some of the content in any case because of legal concerns over the characters' ages -- never mind that our nation's highest judicial body has already ruled otherwise. |
They would have lost the Canadian sales if the characters were underage.
In the case of CGE what I don't understand is why more people are not picking this one up. Sonoda is doing an interesting job with this one and I would assume many readers would like it. Or is the market controlled so much by little kids that stores just are not stocking it?
|
Back to top |
|
|
GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15313
|
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:04 pm
|
|
|
Cowpunk: They're not picking it up, because it's already been done(and better) with Nadesico.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mischief
Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Milpitas, CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:06 am
|
|
|
I am a published writer. I have done both, unsolitated and commissioned work. Though I rarely do any writing these days, I still deal with writers and editors on a daily basis. I have sat in on meetings between publishers and artists discussing what can be printed and what cannot. I have a bit of an understanding between of the rights an artist and somebody that silences an artist’s work. I hope everybody will indulge me while I offer up my perspective on this topic.
Dark Horse had seven options when it was time to deal with the material CGE volume 5, none of these options were favorable.
1) They could have chosen to stop releasing CGE, denying all of the fans (unable to read Japanese) from legally obtaining English version of the story. That choice would not only have cost Dark Horse any income from that material, it would have also been a betrayal of their loyal readership.
2) They could have chosen to release CGE unedited, without warning labels, so that the CGE’s entire fan base could enjoy the unaltered product, knowing that they would be putting themselves, their distributors and the stores that carried CGE at risk to law suits. Lawsuits which could result in heavy fines, imprisonment, store closures, and the unavailability of comic shops to those areas where those shops are forced to close down. It is reasonable to assume from hints about CGE’s unpopularity, that a single store closure could Dark Horse a combined readership equal to 5-10% of their CGE.
3) They could have chosen to release CGE unedited and labeled, thereby depriving the 75+% of the fan base that could no long purchase CGE of the ability to finish reading the story, just because those readers were suddenly too young for the material. With a marginally profitable title. Such as CGE, a 75% loss in readership would make printing the product a money losing proposition.
4) They could have printed two versions of CGE. Even if you ignore the problems that would result should an adult might pick up an edited and then grab a sealed copy (without noticing the difference in audience) for a minor. There is still the fact that you nearly double the production cost of producing the title. In my experience, presses are still the most cost effective way to produce printed material, with the majority of the cost taken up by the plates. Correcting a typo (a rather small task) can cost hundreds of dollars, making an entirely new plate costs significantly more. For a marginal title, a publisher risks losing money.
5) They could have altered the material without consulting Sonoda, which would have been within their legal rights. Though this may have caused problems between Sonoda and Dark Horse.
When I mentioned choices 2-4 to somebody else in the publishing industry, he looked at me like I grew a second head. Fortunately, Dark Horse chose a different option. They consulted Sonoda and made edits to CGE that would allow everybody a chance to continue to read the story. While it was not an ideal outcome, it was the least of seven evils.
That right there is a seventh option. Depending on the wording of the contract between Sonoda and Dark Horse, Dark Horse may very well be within their right to sue Sonoda for damages do to lost revenue resulting from Sonoda choosing to change the product that Dark Horse had purchased without consulting Dark Horse on the matter.
Dark Horse is bound laws and realities of industry. This was a situation where it would be impossible to make everybody happy. Dark Horse did their best with a bad situation, resulting from behavior beyond their control. I would ask that before anybody cries foul over undesired censorship, that you try looking at the realities of the situation first, including those that you might not know about. Dark Horse is as much of a victim of this as everybody else, just for different reasons.
|
Back to top |
|
|
GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15313
|
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:28 am
|
|
|
Quote: | They could have chosen to release CGE unedited and labeled, thereby depriving the 75+% of the fan base that could no long purchase CGE of the ability to finish reading the story, just because those readers were suddenly too young for the material. With a marginally profitable title. Such as CGE, a 75% loss in readership would make printing the product a money losing proposition. |
Except the readers for CGE are essentially hardcore Sonoda fans, not underage teens like those who were purchasing the Ghost in the Shell manga after seeing the movie.
Quote: | Depending on the wording of the contract between Sonoda and Dark Horse, Dark Horse may very well be within their right to sue Sonoda for damages do to lost revenue resulting from Sonoda choosing to change the product that Dark Horse had purchased without consulting Dark Horse on the matter. |
That's bs. They knew what kind of material to expect from him when they edited Gunsmith Cats. And they're the ones who picked up a niche title, just because it had the same creator.
So why should Sonoda be at fault, because DH was too greedy to do the research?
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mischief
Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Milpitas, CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:06 am
|
|
|
GATSU wrote: |
Quote: | They could have chosen to release CGE unedited and labeled, thereby depriving the 75+% of the fan base that could no long purchase CGE of the ability to finish reading the story, just because those readers were suddenly too young for the material. With a marginally profitable title. Such as CGE, a 75% loss in readership would make printing the product a money losing proposition. |
Except the readers for CGE are essentially hardcore Sonoda fans, not underage teens like those who were purchasing the Ghost in the Shell manga after seeing the movie. |
Do you have the sells figures proving this?
Quote: | Depending on the wording of the contract between Sonoda and Dark Horse, Dark Horse may very well be within their right to sue Sonoda for damages do to lost revenue resulting from Sonoda choosing to change the product that Dark Horse had purchased without consulting Dark Horse on the matter. |
That's bs. They knew what kind of material to expect from him when they edited Gunsmith Cats. And they're the ones who picked up a niche title, just because it had the same creator.
So why should Sonoda be at fault, because DH was too greedy to do the research?[/quote]
Keep in mind that the censored material had not been created when he sold the rights to DH. Sonoda knew the addience that DH was aiming for, when he sold DH the rights to CGE. DH demonstrated that they could not release certian type of material. Sonoda had a responsibility to take that into account when he created content that DH could no longer use.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
|
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:20 am
|
|
|
Mischief wrote: | Keep in mind that the censored material had not been created when he sold the rights to DH. Sonoda knew the addience that DH was aiming for, when he sold DH the rights to CGE. DH demonstrated that they could not release certian type of material. Sonoda had a responsibility to take that into account when he created content that DH could no longer use. |
Can publishers be that unflexable? I mean with anime it's not uncommon for a certain episode of a series to have more mature content than the rest which would cause that volume disc to be rated at a higher level, say from 15 to 18, using UK ratings scale, so why not in print media? Again if it is wrapped and clearly labelled "18+", or "Adults Only" DH would be covered for any incident where an underaged child had got hold of that volume surely.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dargonxtc
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
|
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:44 am
|
|
|
Mischief wrote: | Keep in mind that the censored material had not been created when he sold the rights to DH. Sonoda knew the addience that DH was aiming for, when he sold DH the rights to CGE. DH demonstrated that they could not release certian type of material. Sonoda had a responsibility to take that into account when he created content that DH could no longer use. |
Sonodas main market is in Japan is it not.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mischief
Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Milpitas, CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:55 am
|
|
|
Mohawk52 wrote: |
Mischief wrote: | Keep in mind that the censored material had not been created when he sold the rights to DH. Sonoda knew the addience that DH was aiming for, when he sold DH the rights to CGE. DH demonstrated that they could not release certian type of material. Sonoda had a responsibility to take that into account when he created content that DH could no longer use. |
Can publishers be that unflexable? I mean with anime it's not uncommon for a certain episode of a series to have more mature content than the rest which would cause that volume disc to be rated at a higher level, say from 15 to 18, using UK ratings scale, so why not in print media? Again if it is wrapped and clearly labelled "18+", or "Adults Only" DH would be covered for any incident where an underaged child had got hold of that volume surely. |
Keep in mind that manga had not reached regular book stores until CGE had begun its run as a monthly title. CGE was bought with the intent to sell to the demigraphic most likely to be making purchases in comic book stores (males 12-17). Any readership still remaining in that demigraphic when the title went "Adults Only" would be lost. If the age difference was large enough, the former reader might not even remember CGE when he could finally purchase it again.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|