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Koi Kaze -- how many people accept it?

Steve Berry wrote:

As for this statement mushino wrote: Incest has a basis in genetic sexual attraction. But scientists recently discovered that people are least likely to mate with or marry with the people they grew up with. This is not only to do with families, but also in communes and kibbutz where nonrelated people are close as children. it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Can you explain yourself further?? Are you saying that incest happens because we are attracted to those of us who share similar genetic makeup? Or are you talking about not wanting to have relationships with those we are really close to emotionally? I'm just not really sure what you're trying to say. Do these sentences have an arguement binding them together that I'm just not seeing? I don't want to get into an arguement or anything-- I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

All life is most attracted to reproducing with like members, that is how anything evolve, because it allows species to branch off easily.

In nature, the thing keeping brother/sister from breeding is the Westermarck effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29#Westermarck_effect

Notice the Westermarck effect extend beyond relations and can effect your impression of anybody you grew up closely with. This has been scientifically studied in communes/kibbutzes where children growing up closely together rarely marry or even date once they are of age. In any case, the westermarck effect rendered useless in Koi Kaze by the seperation of Koshiro and Nanoka early in their lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

All life is most attracted to reproducing with like members, that is how anything evolve, because it allows species to branch off easily.

In nature, the thing keeping brother/sister from breeding is the Westermarck effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29#Westermarck_effect

Notice the Westermarck effect extend beyond relations and can effect your impression of anybody you grew up closely with. This has been scientifically studied in communes/kibbutzes where children growing up closely together rarely marry or even date once they are of age. In any case, the westermarck effect rendered useless in Koi Kaze by the seperation of Koshiro and Nanoka early in their lives.

How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?

excellent discovery and research. a good add to the thread that isnt bickering.

These are interesting links Mushino-- both of these subjects were brought up in the previous thread on incest in anime (last year??) that I linked to earlier in this thread, although not with these informative wikipedia pages. Thanks for posting them.

J Exp Child Psychol. 2003 Jul;85(3):279-95.

Possible olfaction-based mechanisms in human kin recognition and inbreeding avoidance.

Weisfeld GE, Czilli T, Phillips KA, Gall JA, Lichtman CM.

Department of Psychology, Wayne State University, 71 W. Warren, Detroit, MI 48201, USA. [email protected]

Three studies explored kin recognition through olfaction. In Study I, adults (N=22) were tested for ability to identify the odors of themselves; their mother; their father; a sister; a brother; a familiar, unrelated individual; and a stranger. Acquaintances were identified as accurately as biological kin, implicating an association mechanism. However, biological kin were often confused, implicating phenotypic matching. Same-sex kin were confused more than opposite-sex kin, but mainly when same-sex kin had odors of similar intensity. Study II implicated phenotypic matching. Mothers (N=18) could identify their biological children but not their stepchildren. The preadolescent children (N=37) identified their full siblings but not half-siblings or stepsiblings. Thus, olfactory cues may help mediate favoritism of blood relatives. In Study III, mutual olfactory aversion occurred only in the father-daughter and brother-sister nuclear family relationships. Recognition occurred between opposite-sex siblings but not same-sex siblings. Thus, olfaction may help mediate the development of incest avoidance during childhood (the Westermarck effect).

Psychoanal Q. 1999 Jul;68(3):347-75.

Oedipus, Darwin, and Freud: one big, happy family?

Morehead D.

The author reviews recent sociobiological and psychoanalytic literature relevant to sexual aspects of the male Oedipus complex. Sociobiological discussions of incest and incest avoidance frequently contrast Freud's Oedipus complex with the Westermarck hypothesis. Westermarck argued that children who grow up in close association are averse to sex with each other as adults. Human and animal evidence supports the Westermarck hypothesis, and sociobiologically oriented writers have argued that it contradicts Freud's oedipal notion of an early incestuous sexual interest. However, two additional lines of evidence are relevant to such discussions. First, recent analytic theory on the Oedipus complex does not require the existence of a central, powerful, incestuous sexual drive. Second, both oedipal and sociobiological theory suggest that early familial experience forms a model for adult sexual mate choice and establishes patterns of adult sexual relationships. In these instances, sociobiological understandings of early development correspond well to oedipal theory.

Evol Hum Behav. 2000 May 1;21(3):151-161.

Early separation and sibling incest. A test of the revised Westermarck theory.

Bevc I I, Silverman I I.

Department of Psychology, York University, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

This was a follow-up study of earlier reported findings by the present investigators suggesting, albeit equivocally, that separation during early childhood inhibited later sexual acts of a potentially procreative nature between siblings but did not deter other sexual activity. The present study surveyed 170 subjects, mostly in the Toronto area, by telephone and mail. Respondents reporting potentially procreative, postchildhood sexual acts (attempted or completed genital intercourse) with siblings were compared with those reporting sexual relationships excluding procreative acts, and a third sample reporting no postchildhood sibling sexual behavior. Consonant with expectations from the earlier study, prolonged separation during early childhood was associated with procreative postchildhood sexual activity but not with other postchildhood sexual activity. Contrary to predictions, however, both sexual activity groups reported significantly more nudity and physical contact with siblings during childhood than subjects reporting no sexual activity. The findings are discussed in terms of a revised version of the Westermarck hypothesis, which is consistent with a domain-specific approach to evolved incest avoidance mechanisms.

On a different note--

hentai4me wrote:

How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?

This seems odd to me, although the rest of your arguements have made sense. I mean-- people have all sorts of sexual urges all the time that they don't act on. Guys find chicks hot all the time, but most of them know they aren't supposed to feel them up, and act accordingly. You might find the best friend of your girlfriend hot, but you don't do anything about it because you don't' want to f*ck up your relationship. You might be attracted to a woman who is 17, finding her very interesting and attractive, but most guys let that fall by the wayside because the penalties are too big of a deal to want to go there. Perhaps I'm mis-reading you, or you're trying to say something different, but your statement didn't seem that true to me. What are you getting at here??

How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?

I think we agree in a general sense on most issues like this. Maybe not this one specifically but we do at least understand where we each come from, no?

hentai4me wrote:

How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?

Just because you can't erase your desires doesn't mean you can't control them. Hopefully this was just a poor choice of words on your part.

I think we agree in a general sense on most issues like this. Maybe not this one specifically but we do at least understand where we each come from, no?

This anime disturbed me more than any anime since "Now and Then, Here and There".

spoiler[she is in junior high school(which would make her about 11 to 13)]

I pretty much agree with you about the "I'm down with incest" type of attitude having some issues. To watch KK and say that incest is ok if you're both consentual is a joke. This show isn't representative of 99.99% of all sibling relationships. Until someone is able to give that retort, they should just say that they like Koi Kaze, think it's a shame their siblings, think they should or shouldn't be together anyways because of their extenuating (spelling?) circumstances, and leave it at that. It's a little aggravating when people such as myself go through all the trouble of actually trying to engage in a real, honest, civil conversation about a subject as complicated and taboo as incest, giving examples and a detailed analysis of why we think incest is generally not a very good idea, and then we are ignored.

How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?

hentai4me wrote:

How can you really control your desires though? If you really do love your sister/brother/cousin in a sexual sense then there's not really much you can do about it is there?

I wouldn't call it desire since it is more like a crush. Have you ever had a crush on someone before? I'm sure everyone does at one point in their life. You might have sexual fantasy about them, but you can control your desire, and you can definitely move on. If you can't control your desire and need to act upon them, than you seriously need to seek help.

I'm more concern with the age presented in this anime. He's 27, she's a 15 year old girl, so it's not like they're the same age. And I don't' think 12 year is much of an issue if she was like 20 and he was 32, but to me at 15 year old she's still a young girl.

I have a 15 year old sister myself and if she's dating a 27 year old guy, I'm gonna beat his pathetic ass. I just hear too many horror story of older creepy guys taking advantage of younger girls...... especially older guys who drive nice fancy cars and lure younger naive middle school girls.