Forum - View topicANNCast - Winter Wasteland
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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It's justified in this case since Hope made an extremely generalized and offensive comment about how all otaku see women. She doesn't get a pass on that just because she's a woman. Both of them are wrong on how "hateful" the show is in any case. The two leads are pretty mean to each other at the start. Aqua is a goddess and her mocking pathetic humans is in line with that. The dude then justifiably reacted negatively to that. To everyone else they interact with they're decent enough. Their relationship is not indicative of how they act in general. And even then by the end of the first episode their relationship becomes quite friendly. As always some people put too much importance on seeing them in terms of gender instead of seeing them as individuals. "She's stupid because she's a girl" Hope claims, never considering that there might be other reasons for her below average intelligence (which is different from being stupid I should add) like her up bringing or the like. "He calls her an object." Sure, once and in the context of "I can take anything? Well then you're my 'thing'!" Does he go on to treat her like his belonging for the rest of the episode? No.
No. Just no. People read these reviews seeking your honest opinion, not to see you play a role. This isn't Channel Awesome. |
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DmonHiro
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Hope's comment on how Aqua was being seen as an object is kind wrong. While "mono" can be translated as a thing, that's not the only way it's used. Take the anime Utawareru Mono. It means "the one being sung about", more or less. It refers to a god, and the "mono" here does not signify a thing. Plus, Aqua's words were basically "You can take any one thing with you.". His answer was "OK, I'll take you as my thing". It wasn't an objectifying view, but a loophole abuse, since in Japanese "mono" can refer to both things and people. IMO, Hope was far more offensive to other people with her "this is how otaku view women" comment.
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marcos torres toledo
Posts: 269 |
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Talking of CGI v Cell Animation are you familiar with Code Lyoko where both forms were used in that French animation series. I thought they jelled together quite well moving the story forward.
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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You're taking that statement completely out of context. What she said was that she felt she had to write what she did to explain why she found the episode so unlikable, since all the other critics reacted to it more positively. She was in no way saying that she had to be overly critical or give an opinion that she didn't believe in just to keep up with some "persona" she may have built |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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But right before that she said she actually wasn't all that offended by it. In the end her review did not reflect her actual opinion and she was assuming a role because she felt she had to, not because that's what she really thought. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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^Well yeah, because Zac said the show wasn't offensive, she clarified that she too thought it wasn't offensive. Hope's review at no point says she's "offended" by the show. At most she calls it uncomfortable to watch because both characters are so hateful and nasty. She's calling both characters hateful stereotypes, but because she happens to be a woman people gang up on her for saying the female character's presentation was awful -even though she said that the same was the case for the male character. Her review did not feel dishonest at all, she said she didn't like the show because she found the characterization unnecessarily crass and the animation was terrible
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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The tone of her review did come across as highly offended and pissed off. Add in the factual inaccuracies and it further comes across that she's so offended by it that her perception of events is getting twisted.
And no, I'm not going after her "because she happens to be a woman." That's irrelevant. There are plenty of men out there who take their white knighting too far. I took issue with her "I felt I had to" comment because it brings her credibility into question. Anyone should share their thoughts as is and not purposely be theatric about it because they want more views or whatever. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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It's only the fifth post of this discussion and we're already going in circles, dear me. Once again, the "I had to" comment was referring to the length of the review and why she wrote so in detail about what made her uncomfortable/what she disliked about the episode. It didn't feel forcefully theatric either, that's how most of Hope's reviews are (and tbh, that's why I find them the most entertaining to read) She was also way harsher with other shows like Pandora:
Or Divine Gate:
Or Girls Beyond the Wasteland:
But everyone's on her case about KonoSuba because she dared say she was turned off by the portrayal of the female character (even though she also mentioned that the male character was treated in a nasty way and that the animation was horrid, but conveniently no one who's accusing hope of crying "misogyny" seems to have read that part). I'll leave it here since I'm sure Hope can defend her position if she feels she has to, but I just needed to point out that you're either misrepresenting or at least misinterpreting what she meant when she made that "felt I had to" comment. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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You know how you aren't sexist, but you aren't phrasing yourself very well, and so it's easy to interpret you as trashing Hope's opinion and aggressively poking holes in what she said solely because she's a woman? Like, it would be super easy for you to believe that I'd just completely dismiss your argument based on the fact that you kinda sound a whole lot like the guys who show up to fight every time a woman has a strong opinion on something? That's tough for you, because while you respect Hope as a person and have no issue with Hope's gender, you do deeply disagree with her opinion and want to express your frustration with the way she chose to communicate it. It's hard to do that, because you have a strong authoritarian streak, and you also have a hard time masking how tired you are of being told to be careful when you're arguing with a woman on the internet. All you want to do is make sure Hope knows that the way she chose to communicate these ideas made you feel insulted - and that's really, really difficult to do without making yourself look like someone with a predetermined agenda rather than someone offering up legitimate critical feedback. You are, sincerely, offering the latter, however. It's okay. I get your point. This all sounds really familiar to me, like the time Hope wanted to express something that's really hard to get across - mainly that this show seems to be wallowing in a kind of mean-spirited otaku behavior that, when it's aimed at a woman, feels particularly belittling and objectifying. I saw the show, this isn't an extreme or totally left-field observation, it's a completely understandable reaction that, yes, a lot of people might disagree with. That's a tough sentiment to express in a way that isn't guaranteed to anger some very vocal people in the times we live in, and yes, you're likely to get a lot of blowback. Hope wound up clarifying what she meant on the show, though, and I thought it was a perfectly valid and understandable reaction. You know, just like yours was, under all that clumsy language. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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....Can we all just agree that the show is not meant to be derogatory towards Women, gods, or humans. Despite the fact that there are jokes about a god being useless as a fish out of water, a human being a bad example of humanity, or even that both of them can't follow a quest line in an RPG, and figure out they need to leave the opening town for the first month they lived in it.
I personally appreciate that the show has actual characters with personalities and flaws. In addition to the fact that they actually try to change things up with the setting and go ok yay this would actually happen in an rpg setting world. |
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Luffy's bastard child
Posts: 5 |
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Hey guys, a lot of you guys are bringing up very excellent points and but a lot of you folks are actually missing the point of my post. The reason why I pointed out the 1 show is because that is the particular instance in which Hope was starting to get talked over a lot in THIS EPISODE. It was mentioned briefly but I said this happens often, meaning a fair amount of previous episodes wherein she has been talked over enough that sometimes her point is abandoned. It is not just Zac that talks over Hope. I am asking for in general, for Hope to get cut off less.
Full disclosure, I agreed with Hope's sentiment, but, dun dun dun, I can also see how it was offensive and that one instance she may have needed to be cut off (oh no, there's complicated facets to life? SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!). There is a time and a place for someone to be cut off, but the action doesn't have to be pervasive. I've been listening to this podcast for years and I know that Zac is actually an excellent communicator which is why I bothered to point this out in the first place. If he was one of those people who give up nothing but excuses and can't take solid criticism then I wouldn't have posted this at all. To reiterate, I do not care about an argument that happened over one particular show, I would just appreciate it if her and a lot of the other women weren't cut off during an episode of the podcast. And if you don't understand what I mean, please review the last 30 or so podcasts and mark out when Hope actually gets cut off if you disagree with me. Please note, that people aren't perfect and can often cut each other off in the heat of the moment and it is understandable, but taking a moment, taking a breath, showing some restraint can help as well. Last thought, "Check yourself before you wreck yourself". My mouth has gotten me into trouble as well and I can guarantee every single person on this thread has said something stupid that has gotten them into trouble as well so take it easy on yourself and others if at all possible. PS if you can't divorce yourself from the topic of anime shows or this particular podcast, another example of what I mean by a women mostly being talkex over, even though they do it to the males to a lesser extent listen to a couple episodes of How Did This Get Made?, a comedy podcast about bad movies getting green lit and shown in theaters. One of the regular hosts June, gets talked over exponentially more than the doods. 
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9853 Location: Virginia |
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@Luffy's bastard child
I saw your comment the first two times you mentioned this. Frankly I didn't hear it in connection with the discussion of that show. Regardless, this is something that Zac and Hope need to settle between themselves. It neither of them cares to respond to your comments publically, I don't see where anyone else is in a position to discuss the issue. The overall question of who talks over who in podcasts in general is a bit off topic and is probably not appropriate for this thread. |
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Luffy's bastard child
Posts: 5 |
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@Alan45
The outcome and resolution of that is for sure private, and I'm pretty sure this is a somewhat trivial thing is getting blown up just because some folks got a little upset that the show was thought of poorly. If I need to make this clear, I don't think it is a purposeful and malicious action to talk over Hope. I think this is something that may not be realized which is why I'm pointing that out. Where I disagree sir, is that I am referencing a moment in this episode for this episode's forum. I'm not asking for Zac's sealed approval and a hand written letter saying that he won't do that again, I am just pointing this out in hopes that it lessens in the future. If this helps, if I hear future episodes where Hope is getting talked over again, I'm just going to shrug get annoyed and move on. I'm not even going to post about this again. This is a great show, I love the show, no human being on this planet is above criticism. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5839 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I think you are just trying to cause trouble. Your comments have no bearing on the subject matter of the podcast.
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Luffy's bastard child
Posts: 5 |
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@TarsTarkas
Cause trouble? You're RIGHT!!! This was my evil scheme to have a bunch of people on forum gang up on me and guilt trip them into pitching in for my next therapy session! Jkjk, unless you have venmo. (Still just kidding) Okay, in hindsight I can definitely see how my post may have been better served as a PM to Zac instead of posting it on the forums. I didn't mean for this to be such a big blowout, it was just an immediate venue and my purpose honestly was not to start trouble. I disagree about it not having a bearing about this podcast because, well, it happened on this episode, about a topic on this episode and thus is relevant to this episode's forum even if MY issue with what I'm hearing is overarching. This will be my final post about this episode unless there's a really compelling reason for me to post again. I just want to say one last time, I still believe it's pertinent and relevant to this episode, my intention is not to cause trouble, I just wanted to point this out as a fan. Take care and good luck |
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