Forum - View topicIs Miyazaki a good story teller?
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1775 Location: South America |
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Indeed. To think Miyazaki's work is like "Disney" that is which is simplistic and aimed at children in the sense that children are treated as dumb creatures is pretty ignorant statement. Miyazaki himself said that he doesn't like movies that show contempt for their audience. This whole concept of "children's TV/movie" is actually a Western concept. I don't think I ever watched an anime that feels like an Western children's movie such as Lion King. And children's manga such as Ashita no Joe and Fullmetal Alchemist are as good if not better than any adult manga. A film like My Neighbor Totoro is for example a very realistic and elegant slice of life film. Its about childhood imagination and wonder but it lacks anything like a "Disney like" contempt for the intellect of their audience. Also Miyazaki made movies such as Porco Rosso which were aimed at "tired middle aged men" in his words.
By "cohesion" you must mean following Western established standards of writing fictional narrative.
Never watched animation that is like Miyazaki as well. Although stuff directed by Naoko Yamada like Tamako Market also shows a lot of attention for gestures and movement of characters. |
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jal90
Posts: 11 |
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Maybe but I don't think that covers all the instances, particularly of Howl's moving castle, his least cohesive work in my opinion. It's filled with mood changes, characters being redefined from one scene to another, and a conclusion that doesn't really feel that it's coming from a solid ground. It may be to a point a stylistic choice but actually it does have a negative effect on the global comprehension of the story.
I'll definitely need to watch Tamako Market. From what I've seen, she's one of the greats. Well, KyoAni in general is for that matter. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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Using that as a defence against criticism of non-western stories has a few problems. One, it doesn't prove that the story in question meets even the narrative standards of its own culture. Secondly, it precludes the possibility that "Western" narrative standards might be better in some respects based on shared human psychology. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23786 |
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As it should since there is not scintilla of evidence to support such a contention. This is ethnocentricism at its purest. "Of course, OUR way of doing things is the best!" |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I never said there was. I was just pointing out that the statement I quoted excluded the possibility that one culture's established method of storytelling might be superior to another. I don't know enough about Japanese narrative standards to make a judgement in either direction. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23786 |
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I certainly understand pointing out that you (and I would say most of us here) are not qualified to judge when a Japanese work fails to satisfy established methods of Japanese storytelling. But I don't get why you would even raise the possibility that due to "shared pyschology" among cultures there is even a possibility that one culture's norms are "better" than another's. It's is a strange possibility to raise, especially given that you yourself are not saying evidence for such a contention exists.
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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At least when it comes to criticizing fiction writing I don't see the point in creating barriers between cultures seeing as how humans have shared psychological traits. If you're going to do that why not just make it a completely individual (rather than cultural) thing and assume that all writers have their own personal standards of storytelling, which anyone else isn't qualified to judge. Example, using a Deus Ex Machina to end a story today is generally considered poor writing because psychologically it's not as satisfying as other kinds of conclusions. In Ancient Greek theatre though such endings were normal. We're not Ancient Greeks, but we don't have a problem criticizing that trope. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23786 |
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To a certain extent, I understand where you are coming from. I'm a Westerner and I judge works that come from other cultures through my Western filter. However, I also intellectually recognize that some of the things that I view negatively arise from the way I have been "trained" to appreciate narrative. For me, it's important to able to note that something I dislike might work like gangbusters for the audience it was actually intended for, even though I have no way of knowing for sure (other than indirectly - i.e. if a work is massively popular or has endured over many generations in its home culture you can at least infer it has been successful in its narrative norms for that culture.)
So I have zeor problem with a Westerner saying, "yeah, you know what? This work just doesn't do it for me even though it may be great for the place it came from." I do have a problem with saying, "Yeah, you know what? This work just doesn't do it for me and the author was wrong to neglect the narrative norms I have grown up with." |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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For me it depends on what type of narrative norms are being discussed. This isn't necessarily a cross-cultural issue so much, but I know a lot of American anime fans criticize Evangelion because Shinji Ikari is a "whiney b*tch" instead of an alpha male hero etc. Cultural barriers or not, that's not a valid criticism because it's just based on the person making it being used to a certain trope. There's no argument being made there that writing the character this way negatively effected the telling of the story. In contrast, I would claim that the way Nausicca for example is written does negatively impact the telling of that story for reasons that can be rooted in psychology. Another thing I'd add is that a lot (possibly most) of Western narratives don't necessarily follow "Western norms" of storytelling that well. So I'm definitely not saying that Western stories are good and Japanese ones are bad. |
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CameronMac
Posts: 2 |
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He's a master artist and animator but as a storyteller he's not the greatest. People confuse his creative fantasy settings for storytelling. Here are examples of issues from some of his films:
Beginnings, Middle and Ends of his stories having nothing to do with each other. The beginning and middle should set up to what happens in the end. Like this - Knock, knock. Who’s there? Lettuce. Lettuce who? Lettuce in, it’s cold out here. And Not Knock, knock. Who’s there? Lettuce. Lettuce who? Lettuce in, and cat bus comes and saves the day. In Spirited Away it all feels like an improvised story where people wrote a scene each and had no idea what the previous person had written. There's a twin witch randomly thrown in there. The personalities of the characters are constantly changing - look at the baby. Haku is sometimes a warm person and sometimes cold. Porco Rosso (which is a good film) and Ponyo's endings really don't relate to the rest of the film. Lots and lots of loose ends. So the story finishes and you are left wondering why this and that was in the story: In Howl's Moving Castle what's this big war that's going on that is completely forgotten about at the end of the story and adds nothing to the story. Is there truth and believability to what's happening: In My Neighbour Totoro are we really supposed to believe that the girls would receive a message from the hospital that would make them believe that there mum was about to die. Would a hospital send out such an insensitive letter when she's absolutely fine. Why is she even in hospital anyway? She has a the common cold or something. Watching this the viewer shouldn't be believing what is happening. He doesn't know who his main character is: In My Neighbor Totoro you would expect Totoro to be the hero of the film when instead suddenly the Cat Bus comes and saves the day. In Princess Mononoke the main character is very much Prince Ashitaka. What is the theme of the story? Why is he telling us this: Don't know what point he's making in Howl's Moving Castle or Ponyo. |
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jal90
Posts: 11 |
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I understand this feeling, but: -It makes sense that events are inconsequential and varied in that environment. A magic world, which is constantly being explored and discovered by a character who never experienced it before. -Even in that case they form an overall cohesive narrative with a development and a moral. You end up realizing that Chihiro had to grow up and become a sensible and responsible person, and so she did. -Just because there are multiple characters with multiple motivations and backstories that Chihiro finds out about as she spends more time in there doesn't make the narrative improvised. Alice in Wonderland for instance did a similar thing. -The events are inconsequential but Chihiro's reaction to them is not. As said, her body language tells a whole story by itself, as it says a lot about her and by contrast, it says a lot about her growth. Experience makes her look more calmed and measure her gestures and reactions to events better. She also changes her personality in the way the narrative intended to do in order to reach that moral.
Care with the spoilers here. This is an important plot point. spoiler[This would probably be considered a deus ex (or diavolo ex, for that matter), but in a world with magic elements and implausibilities surrounding every corner I don't think a twin for one of the characters sounds rare at all, seeing that anything else makes sense. She is equally capable of using magic, she is an antagonist to Yubaba's lifestyle and ideals, she lives far away in consequence. Their relationship is coherent and it makes sense that Yubaba never mentions her. Plus this was connected with Haku, and both him and Yubaba are shown to know that Zeniba existed. Chihiro is the one who was new to that world, and we are seeing through her eyes. It's only the logical step that we didn't know anything about this twin witch till that point.]
spoiler[The baby was reprehended and punished by Zeniba. His body changed to a mouse and had to go with Chihiro with that new form, who ended up taking responsibility of him and managing to take his body back. I'd say it's a big reason for somebody to change, considering that he learned about the outside world, realized that it was not as menacing as it looked and was grateful to Chihiro for this.]
Haku was always warm to Chihiro, he acted cold in front of others.
Porco Rosso's ending relates perfectly to the rest of the film. spoiler[The film viewed Porco's physical condition as a metaphor for his own guilt and lack of faith in humanity and himself. We don't know if it was a spell or just an illusion, but that question was never asked and therefore it's only natural that it didn't get an answer. In the ending, Donald's last phrase suggests that he is no longer, or no longer appears as a pig, which symbolizes the healing effect that his adventure with Fio had.]
Again this is spoilerific since it happens when the story is quite advanced. spoiler[It's not an insensitive letter, it may have been a sudden complication in her disease. Informing the family sounds like the right thing to do in these cases. The least a doctor can do is sugarcoating bad news, no matter who hears or reads them they have to tell the truth, and kids certainly can't bear things the same way an adult does, which is why they react like that, particularly Mei who is a 4-year-old and only understands that her mother is going to die. Anyway the hospital just sent a letter to the new address of the family, the only way it was shown to be able to. It was not their fault that Satsuki ended up reading it.]
Miyazaki based part of this story on autobiographical events. His mother underwent treatment for spinal tuberculosis that kept her 9 years in a hospital. It is actually confirmed by the author that Mei's and Satsuki's mother suffered from tuberculosis, so no, it wasn't a common cold. This assumption you made is completely baseless (and factually wrong), because the character doesn't even have symptoms of "common cold", so why did you rely on it so much?
Well, things: -Spoiler again! -I don't see how this is supposed to be a bad thing. Your point is that your expectations were wrong? Why did you expect spoiler[Totoro to be the hero] in a narrative that for a very long time didn't even have a conflict or a problem to be solved? Again, there was nothing in the film that built to that event you were expecting. -I would even be hesitant to say that there's any hero in a story that is mostly about observation and playful interaction with a little moment of emotional struggle towards the end.
I said that in Howl this was compromised by the lack of coherence and the abundance of plot and character points that weren't well explored, but still, it had a clear anti-war message and it also told a romance. The film had enough emphasis on these aspects to realize that. Similar to Ponyo's focus on family, friendship and the environmental message that is so typical of him. Even if I agree that the ending isn't clear enough in this film, it still emphasizes its basic points well enough to understand what Miyazaki wanted to transmit with this story. Miyazaki's narrative surely has problems related to loose ends and lack of proper or balanced exploration, but it tends to make clear what the overall point or moral of his stories is, and I don't believe either of these is an exception. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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For me this is one of the main problems, and it often is the result of a lack of dramatic focus ie the stories are not held together by a main character (or characters) trying to reach a goal or overcome a problem. About half way through Spirited Away, Chihiro tells her parents that she's going to save them, but she literally does nothing to that effect either before or after she says this. That's not just Spirited Away either. Instead of Problem>Struggle>Resolution, it goes Problem>Characters doing random stuff>Resolution. |
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Jose Cruz
Posts: 1775 Location: South America |
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But movies like Kiki and Princess Mononoke are like the gold standard for storytelling in animation. Howls is still very good but it feels to me like a storm of emotions rather than a typical linear story with a well defined conflict. [Edit]: removed unnecessary nested quotes. Please read the quoting guidelines. Errinundra. |
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jal90
Posts: 11 |
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^
I'm interested on this. Why do you consider them the gold standard for storytelling in animation? Miyazaki has better rounded stories in my opinion, particularly Porco Rosso; true, Kiki is a great coming of age and Mononoke is an amazing epic, but are their narratives that solid? If these are gold standard, what about Takahata's -pretty much- entire filmography? Ditto. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I won't speak on Kiki because I don't remember it that well, but as regards Mononoke whaaa? The lead character is not only a total Mary Sue, but he's kind of irrelevant to the central conflict. Even San the titular character is basically irrelevant to the central conflict. |
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