Forum - View topicREVIEW: Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack Blu-Ray
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DeTroyes
 Posts: 520 |
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The amazing thing to me is that Tomino spoiler[evidently still thought Hathaway was hero material]. After CCA Tomino tried to pitch a Hathaway-centered Gundam TV series but was rejected. There was some production art for it in an early 90s issue of Newtype. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 5936 |
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Yeah none of the ultimately explains why Char goes from an anti-villian with an axe to grind against the Zabis in the original gundam, to what he was in Zeta, to not very well intentioned extremist in Char's Counterattack. Who some people don't see as a villain despite him dropping asteroids on earth with the goal of making it uninhabitable and irregardless of the untold number of casualties this will cause, which isn't unlike Zeon dropping colony's on earth.
Was this before Gundam Wing came out on Toonami or after in an attempt to chase that show's success put out a bunch of series like G, MS 08th Team, War In The Pocket, and even the original Gundam (which never finished it's run on TV) that never never really caught on. Last edited by BadNewsBlues on Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TranceLimit174
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Actually, the problem was US fans not having access to Zeta. Zeta laid the groundwork for everything that came after, and this movie is downright nonsensical if you have no frame of reference for things like Anaheim Electroics and Cyber Newtypes. But Gundam as a whole was handled poorly after Wing in the US. At least we got G though before the releases dried up. And, aside from penguintruth am I the only who thought Char was always consistent? He was always a radical with the same views and goals. All that changed was his methodology and dropping Axis was his form of "tough love" for humanity. I admit it's been a long time since I last watched CCA but I don't recall this borderline pedophile characterization between him and Quess. Everything he does in relation to her is purely for the sake of manipulation. Scirocco did the same thing in Zeta, and aside from their personal charisma they were able to do this because they were in tune with their abilities as Newtypes to "read" and connect with the emotions of others. It's not blatantly stated, but I always loved this underscored trait of their's and why I think they are great villains. And yes, we can all agree that Quess is horrible even with the unstable Newtype conceit. |
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DeTroyes
Posts: 520 |
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I disagree that US fans didn't have access to Zeta Gundam. I certainly was watching it in 1985/1986, almost as it was coming out in Japan, thanks to fans who were trading video. And the underground trade of video tapes was certainly in full force by then; I know because I participated in it. And ran video rooms at several conventions. Certainly by the time CCA came out, a huge swathe of us had already watched Zeta & ZZ (albeit, unsubtitled). The hope among US fans at the time was that the original Gundam, Zeta & ZZ could be packaged in the US as a single unit ala Robotech. At the time you could sense that there was a genuine hunger growing for anime, and it just seemed to most of the fans I knew that UC Gundam made the most sense as a franchise that could take advantage of the groundwork already established by Robotech. The hope for CCA was that it would help build that buzz. Unfortunately for us, the movie proved entirely unsuitable for generating that kind of interest.
No you're not. Even before CCA, you get the sense that Char was willing to go quite far to achieve his goals. His alliance with AEUG in Zeta seemed one more of expedience than anything, a means to help fight an immediate threat while still gathering his strength for this longer term goals.
Even if he's only manipulating Quess for his goals, it still comes across as pretty pedo. I mean, she's 13 and he's somewhere in his 30s, and yet he still makes her think she's got a chance. Not one of Char's better moments. And yeah, its been a while since I watched CCA too. Probably should get around to watching it again soon. |
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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See, the point of this moment is the psycoframes and Newtype energy reaching overwhelming levels between Amuro and Char, but the Federation and Zeon forces feeling inexplicably compelled to risk their lives and stop Axis from falling is to indicate that Amuro's belief in humanity to join together and rise to the challenge prevails over Char's, because again, Newtype powers is basically extrasensory super empathy/persuasion. My problem is what happens after - when you make sense of the moment, it is quite beautiful, but just as soon as they are called to stop the colony drop, they pull back again without much time to cherish the moment, presumably Amuro admiring their convictions but wanting to spare their lives and deal with it himself, or Char's pessimism winning, and Amuro and Char still reach a stalemate. It could've been so poignant and conclusive, but instead Tomino opts for some nebulous bullcrap about Amuro and Char's fate not being explicitly shown, but they canonically die here together, Tomino not wanting to clearly show Amuro's optimism winning out and settling on: "who knows what fate and time will have in store for humanity?" but that kind of question could be raised with pretty much ANY ending. He could've had Amuro win in the moment and just leave the rest of UC history unknown had he chose to end it there (not that I have any problem with the late UC stuff) or even still just again, hang on the momentary victory for life at that point in time as flames would reignite later down the UC timeline, but he tries to sell the uncertainty that has been thrown around throughout the series as a conclusion and a grand idea, it's just a waste I find. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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To toss out some more of my personal ideas, the only character noticeably worst narratively in the classic UC verse is Katz from Zeta Gundam, Tomino thought he was establishing the "next Amuro Ray" but instead for a character debut we get Katz light.
As for Quess, she is from the character lineage of Sarah and Ple where a "tiny villainous girl" comes into play, said character ends up playing a little for both sides and has her heart sway from Loyalty and Love. Toss in that Tomino already does this with the other female pilot Reccoa in Zeta, and it is clear he thought he was "so clever" with this over used set up. |
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Angel'sArcanum
Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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I'd give him more credit than that. Quess was a malleable young girl looking for an older man to love her where she isn't reciprocated and is short-sighted, doing what she wants and jumping around between Amuro and Char kind of if they start to neglect her. Sarah was just kind of an entitled, loud-mouthed Scirocco devotee the whole time, Puru was really innocent and kind but was being brainwashed or whatever by Neo Zeon, only to break free and be a good ally and friend for the Argama, her relationship with Judau was more like a brother and sister, just that she didn't know how family members functioned and such, and then Reccoa was a largely well-minded and mature young woman who was conflicted between her morals and her love life as Scirocco started to play with her heart and she acted more on her basic emotions more. I think they are a bit more nuanced than you make it out to be personally, the circumstances for their indecision and how much of that they are able to control vary, and their personalities are pretty different. Meanwhile my problem is between Four and Rosamia. Both are Cyber-Newtype Titans that have some short-lived attachment to Kamille and suffer the same fate while not getting much time to characterize them, both are memorable more for their designs than their personalities, maybe their ties to the plot (Four falling in love with Kamille and Rosamia being brainwashed into thinking Kamille is her brother) but they don't have the most rounded of personalities. Not only the repeated thread of "tragic Cyber-Newtype women get attached to Kamille", but Four herself supposedly dies after her brief fling with Kamille, comes back a bit more briefly and meets with Kamille, then dies AGAIN. Last edited by Angel'sArcanum on Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Valhern
 Posts: 916 |
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I think the problem there is the reused storyline of Lalah with not a particularly better execution. I like Four's kinda calm personalilty, I mean it's just okay, nothing great but I like her overall. The thing is, as far as Kamille is involved, she worked pretty well in her first appearence, but then it's like "What if Amuro and Char found a Lalah-proxy who couldn't control her powers what would they do?!" A cool idea, but we didn't need to cripple poor Kamille's mental health even further. Four (and by extension, almost all other Cyber Newtype girls) gets cheapened every other time the same idea is reused. Marida Cruz is probably my favorite rehash of it because there is a lot built around her own life, her beliefs, and she is overall her own character rather than Banagher's click for mental breakdown. Sspoiler[he kinda is anyway but it doesn't feel as cheap.] |
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LinkTSwordmaster
 Posts: 382 Location: PA / USA |
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Oh wow did I seriously miss the party - not that it would matter much at this point.
Review article was a good read too and a fair assessment of the film. Without further ado, here's a blast from the past:
Am also.....honored(?) that you seem to vaguely remember me Angel. For reference, here's the original - Gundam ZZ BluRay Review Vol. 1. I can't say my thoughts have changed much since all of that was posted. I still have yet to see MSG: The Origin too, and would like to see if that has tidied up any loose ends. I've got enough chatter in me about the subject for an Anime Expo panel, and I've always had the nagging thought in the back of my head that Tomino envisioned some part of himself in Char much in the way authors sometimes pseudo-write themselves as the main character, but closing in on 3AM in the morning.......there's little point in dragging the discussion out beyond re-posting what I did before. It's not like I'm getting paid or what I say matters anyways, lol~ My "old lady rants" here won't be seen by the Gundam community at large. If there was ONE thing I'd hope views would consider while watching CCA, it's that YouTube link I cited in my quote there, and the analysis of those two scenes. I defend to the death that single YouTube clip provides soooooooooooo much context for the movie......the stirring of emotions it brings up even now is insane. |
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John Thacker
Posts: 1006 |
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I view Char's goal in CCA to be relatively similar to Amadiro's goal for Earth in Asimov's Robots and Empire. The ultimate twist in that novel is that Asimov (through the robots) end up agreeing that dooming Earth in order to force humans into space is the best thing for humanity, only they want to do it over a much longer time span to allow humans time to emigrate. Robot and Empire came out in 1985, only a couple of years before CCA. I don't know if it influenced the plot directly, but I find it interesting.
It's definitely a crush from Quess's end, and he cynically takes advantage of it. He's not a "pedophile" in the sense that he doesn't have any real attraction, but I also get the impression that if it were necessary to commit sexual acts with her to achieve his goals, he would. That leaves it at the level of philosophical debate whether I care about someone who is willing to be a pedophile is "really" a pedophile. An ironic manipulator is still taking advantage of her.
Yeah, but she's horrible in a very 13 year old entitled rich brat rebelling against her parents kind of way. Not really different from the super whiny versions of Amuro in the original or Kamille in Zeta. Tomino really thinks that kids are whiny and need to get slapped around, I guess. |
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Valhern
Posts: 916 |
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I think your analysis of Char is very on point and it really describe very well his character. The thing is, my problem is more of a broken suspense of disbelief. Everything you say sounds believable that happened, the problem is that the movie wants you to go and buy that in right out of the bat when Char has been thought as dead since the end of Zeta and nowhere to be seen in ZZ. Like you say, the idea of Haman destroying his ideals completely is very sound and likely, it's a jump you yourself have to make, and I believe it's completely unnecessary to leave such a key point for the audience to figure out. I mean, it's cool to not tell everything, and I don't even mean to really outright state how exactly Char chose this path, but showing his breaking point would have made a whole world of difference for me. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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Something to toss out, Char was certainly not the founder of the AUEG group, he was aligned with AEUG and only ended up as the leader following the death of Blex Forer.
AEUG likely did not follow whatever ideals Char personally had, but from Char's perspective they were a lesser evil to the oppressive Titans at the time and were flipping whatever bills Char had running at the time. Char has always been a character aligned solely to himself, it is unclear if Char was giving lip service (in regards to "saving humanity") to Quess or was truly honest with his ideals as that is how ambiguous Char has been throughout his original incarnation. The ONLY person Char was likely open to was Lalah Sune, and even that could be speculative as she had her life cut down swiftly. The Gundam Origin rendition of Char straight out makes him to be a psychopath seeking almost any excuse to get into fights and eventually learning that if he manipulates people into there own downfall such machinations are much more amusing. If we follow the G Origin logic, the dropping of a mega colony sized asteroid on Earth was being done so for the EVULZ and all his sweet talking was just a front and makes Char a blood thirsty devil that simply hated humanity. |
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jr240483
 Posts: 4379 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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in ZZ. but in the movie there was a brief hint that she actually did all the way back when it showed on adult swim in the old toonami era. though they never explained how. |
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Beltane70
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I found it kind of interesting for the review to consider Quess as a protagonist! She's always been my most hated Gundam character of all time. I actually found her death to be quite satisfying and not at all tragic!
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db999
Posts: 300 |
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So posting a comment way after this threat lost it’s relevancy, it’s been nearly 6 years since the last comment, but I also agree that Char’s motivations in this movies make sense, are consistent with his previous characterizations and explained in the movie. While it might feel initially jarring I think anyone who watched ZZ should fully understand why Char does what he does. People keep mentioning his speech on Earth in Zeta, but what happens after that. The ending of Zeta where nearly everyone is killed and Kamille’s is put into a catatonic state, and also the events of ZZ in which several characters mention throughout that Char might be still alive and stepping aside to watch events play out and what would he have seen.The Earth Federation completely capitulates and bows down to Haman Karn for they own selfish agenda’s allowing her to drop a colony on Dublin, the axis civil war, Haman’s death, and then nothing changes and the Earth Federation going back to its state of general incompetence and general malaise. All this after he thought things might finally be changing and he’s proven woefully incorrect and everything still sucks. Amuro even calls Char out about this in Char’s Counterattack when he’s having his speech about revolutionaries being so grand in their designs, going to drastic measures, but then after the revolution happens and the passion dies down and then the revolutionaries how started it stepping aside and retreat from the world. This is exactly what Char did after Zeta Gundam. The thing about this movie is that it doesn’t hold your hand and you actively have to pay attention to what’s going on, but where I do sympathize with people who don’t understand certain things in the movie is that this is that this movie is packed with so much material that I think it can be genuinely difficult to parse certain aspects of the plot and characters. That’s actually one of Tomino’s idiosyncrasies as a writer and I think his movies are where this most comes about. Personally I think this film basically needs a re-watch for certain things to be intelligible for most people, and it just might be asking to much of the audience. Still I love this film as a culmination of the rivalry between Char and Amuro, as ultimately their story is about two people who are just incapable of understanding each other despite being Newtype's.
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