Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Overlord III
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Kokuryu Daimao
Posts: 115 |
|
|||
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but who in the village died during the test? I rewatched that episode and all the townsfolk were inside the houses and no one was shown as getting killed or mentioned as getting killed afterwards. The only ones outside were the defenders and none of them were shown as getting killed either. Of the lizard men, only the warriors who fought died. None of the females or the young were ever killed or mentioned as being killed. A few, including Zaryusu, were even resurrected. And the point of that war was for Nazarick to increase its resources, increase its army and to test if a former NPC like Cocytus could think beyond his previous Yggdrasil ingame programming. Is there some LN information that was omitted that related to those incidents? Last edited by Kokuryu Daimao on Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||
|
||||
|
meiam
Posts: 3442 |
|
|||
There were a bunch of people at the front gate when the troll burst it open, there even was a little speech along the line of "welp we'll probably die" do you really think no one died? The lizardman... you realize warrior are people too, right? Plus small tribal village don't have standing army, they have civilian that get essentially drafted, most of them must be farmer hunter. I've already talked about how incredibly pointless and convoluted those test were, needless to say plenty of solution existed that didn't involved killing a bunch of people. |
||||
|
||||
|
Kokuryu Daimao
Posts: 115 |
|
|||
Yes there was a speech, but no one was shown as getting killed or mentioned. If you insist on "Do you really think that no on died?" I will counter with "Do you really think that everyone surviving isn't also probable?" The show has never avoided showing killing/death when relevant, so if anyone did die, why wouldn't they even mention it after the test ended? I totally agreed with you on how all those things could have been done better, but it doesn't diminish the point of those actions. :EDIT: Also Lizardman civilians being Drafted? These are Tribal warriors, they all Volunteered and were willing and eager to fight. Killing, fighting, dying, is part of their society. Hardly innocent. The ones who could be considered innocent, the females, the young and the really old all survived. The Older warriors had to order the younger ones to go back to the village to avoid being needlessly killed because they knew they were going off to die. :Second Edit: Farmers? Please don't tell me you forgot that these are Lizardmen. They are carnivorous feeders. They even made that deal about how that one Tribe avoided the last war by secluding themselves and resorting to cannibalism. The closet thing to farming was that radical ideal of fish farming by Zaryusu. and no one but him was doing it. |
||||
|
||||
Blackwolf0925
 Posts: 67 |
|
|||
|
I will admit this episode sour me a bit on the series. I knew not to get invested in these characters because they were going to die, but damn it the story has a way of still getting to me. As a very empathic person I am not sure if I should contiue the series or not. The side characters are great but Ainz to me is kinda off a let down.
I feel like this episode threw a lot of people off because of the way Ainz acted. I don't read the LN or WN so I am not sure how in character is was for him to do this. But to me it seemed very out of character for him to react like this given what we seen just from the anime. The anime to me does not really delve into Ainz thought process to much. Anyways those are my two cents. I am going to be one of those that have a mixed bag with this episode. If anyone want to clarify for me Ainz's character a little bit more, I am willing ot be open minded in continuing the series. |
||||
|
||||
|
Johan Eriksson 9003
Posts: 281 |
|
|||
1) When was their loyalty ever in question? Everyone at Nazarick is literally programmed to treat Ainz as a god. The only time that was ever challenged was when one of them was brainwashed by a mega rare item and even then she was only a challenge because Ainz wanted to fight her 1-on-1. Still, that was one of the better parts of the series since it gave some conflict, but it is never brought up again after that. 2) Sebas developing some conscience of his own is the best part of the show so far. Amazing, the show actually gets good when it isn't about the sociopath with no conflict and instead focuses on how other characters might react to this guy, just like we have been saying all along. Shocking!!! 3) Again, the notion that there might be people as strong or stronger than Ainz out there or that they could use world-items against him never goes anywhere after season 1. It doesn't register as a legitimate threat and it isn't treated as a conflict. And it certainly isn't the motivation for any of Ainz's foul deeds. 4) The whole point of the "you do what you have to in times of war" thing, is that people are expected to be in danger in a warzone and thus it is understandable that they might do unsavory things to save themselves or their allies. That excuse doesn't fly when you are powerful enough that no one poses any threat to you. And I doubt anyone really cares about the theocracy guys who were war-criminals themselves, but what Ainz did to Foresight and many others is clearly an abuse of power. You don't get a free pass just because it is technically a war. 5) Ainz was the one who started the war against the lizardmen, even though he knew they posed no threat and stood no chance of winning. Don't even [expletive] try to defend that one. |
||||
|
||||
|
MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
|
|||
|
Are you serious right now kokuryu? Some tribemen being happy to die defending their people doesn't mean they wanted to die to begin with, something that wouldn't have happen if ainz hadn't decided to use them in an experiment. War for resources? What resources? A muddy lake with so little food the lizardmen had to diminish thwir own population some while ago? You don't need to read the novel to have watched in the anime how many died in batle. Also tribes don't have armies. There might be a couple dedicated warriors but when conflict rises everyone gets drafted.
Let's say that somehow no villager die. A the very least they got hurt to some degree (the pharmacist certainly did, so surely others aswell) is that suppoused to be fair game? If I were to unilaterally send a thug to break into your house and you end up with just a broken arm, doesthat make me less of a villain or a douchebag? |
||||
|
||||
|
MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
|
|||
|
Also. Meiam obviously meant hunter-gatherer, precisely because they still haven't come up with farming is the proof that their civillization doesnt have dedicated armies. Public services are only available when there is food surplus, they are so pre agricultural revolution that they dont even have taxes for crossing their non-walls in their non-cities. How could they support troops? But I digress
Those lizards certainly raided eachothers' tribes and killed. But at least they did it in order to not starve to death. Who in nazarick was being affected by the lizards? What who was starving? |
||||
|
||||
|
MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
|
|||
This seems to be a common missconception but the npcs aren't programmed to be unconditionally loyal. Their character lore was the basis for their personalities but that's it as far as ainz and the viewer is concerned they are now alive and anything alive can change their perspectives over time. At the begining of the series he was legit terrified of having to fight the guardians if they deemed him unfit to rule them thus the reason he started to be cruel to the rest of the world at the begining. While at this point he is more concerned with the shame of not living up to their expectations, he still considers a coup dtat a real posibility. We may say it is highly unlikely but that's precisely because of how hard he have been working at "looking" likeable to them |
||||
|
||||
NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2316 |
|
|||
I think this is sort've missing the point. It doesn't matter if really, deep in the lore, if you love the mangaka's heart of hearts hard enough, the Nazarick NPCs have their own wills. No, what matters is whether that manifests in any meaningful conflicts for Ainz. And, at least in the anime, it almost purely does not. Literally everyone except Seba and the world-item-altered Shalltear behave like automatons. And that makes their behavior boring. Add on to that that Ainz is unthreatened by every other character we've seen even hinted, and you get a show in which we don't think anything matters. Hence, it's not just the Nazarcik NPCs that're boring, but everything. That's what people (including me) are saying, stated lazily and succinctly, I think. |
||||
|
||||
|
Kokuryu Daimao
Posts: 115 |
|
|||
I'm actually no where near serious, but I'm willing to discuss things out. First Off, please do not frame my "willing and eager to fight" as "happy to die". You know that that is a gross misrepresentation of the situation. I have served my time in the military, alongside many other soldiers and have been around many other veterans who have also lived through past wars . All of us were willing and eager to defend our country, our homes and our families, when called to do so because it was our Duty. We accepted that death might be possible and some didn't make it back, but NO ONE was happy to die. Prepared to die and searching for death are two completely different things. Tribal societies share that same sense of duty when they need to defend theirs as well. Second, yes resources. Not that muddy swamp, or dwindling fish population, but the Lizardmen Themselves. Ainz wants World Domination, so there will be wars and killing and death. Being able to maximize outcomes while minimizing losses is key to basic warfare. There is a strategic military significance in picking on the Lizardmen first. Precisely because they were initially seen as an Easy target. One that could be quickly eliminated to test out Cocytus's abilities to lead an army. Afterwards they could raise an undead army of Lizardmen to bolster Nazarick's forces or to use as fodder in future conflicts so they don't have to waste Nazarick's resources. When Germany started WW2, they went after the smaller, easier Poland first. Through the course of the conflict Cocytus was impressed by the Lizardmen, expressed mercy be shown to them, Demiurge supported it and Ainz decided to switch from elimination to subjugation. Now they are a Resource that Ainz can grow and develop, practice governing skills and use in various tasks like assisting in training Hamsuke. Third, classes. These are Lizardman Tribal societies based in a fantasy world framed by classic RPG rule-sets. They don't have armies, they have War parties. They All had Classes. The only ones who didn't have a class were those too young to have picked a class. They were also warring tribes who you even mentioned that had to diminish their own populations. How did they do that again? Oh yeah, through killing other tribes and taking their resources or through cannibalizing their own people. But obviously, they are all a bunch of innocents. So there were more than "A couple" dedicated warriors. Just by looking at the anime you could count Dozens of Warriors or Monks or Rogues or Spellcaters or Healers. Even the Female Lizardman, Crusch Lulu, had a Class as a shaman or priest type. They were not simple farmers drafted to fight. They didn't even farm. They hunted or killed to survive. Everyone gets drafted? I didn't see any Lizardman children formed into child armies forced to fight the undead army. Please point out where that happened. Now onto the village of Carne. Fair Game? What the heck does fair game have to do with any of this? These aren't opposing sports teams trying to win a match. These villagers live in a Brutal Medieval Fantasy World. This is a test to see if the Village of Carne can survive in that Brutal medieval fantasy world. Its simple, pass means you live, fail means you die. As far as the anime has shown, they village passed, no one died. To do any less would actually be a dis-service to the village because they would be unprepared in the event a real attack happens. Lastly, if you sent a thug to my house and all I ended up with was a broken arm, it doesn't make you a villain or a douchebag. It makes you an Accomplice. So we have; Conspiracy to commit a crime, Breaking and Entering, and a broken arm means Assault and Battery. Which would be significantly different crime if that Assault and Battery was instead, Attempted Murder, or actual Murder, which would then be divided into First, second or third degrees. All of which garner varying degrees of punishment based on the severity of the crime, and as an accomplice your degree of punishment does as well. Thats as close to a "fair game" as you're going to get. But if the point is to simplify all this down like you're trying to do, then the next time you jaywalk across a street, we should just give you the death sentence, because it doesn't matter if you're less of criminal, it just matters that you're a criminal. |
||||
|
||||
|
MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
|
|||
|
Neverconvex. I think you are the one that is missing my point. I wasn't trying to justify the aparent blandness of the plot or any other failure in the writing which I am sure there are a good deal of. I just wanted to clarify that the npc's devotion to ainz isn't some kind of scientific law imposible to bend. Yes they started he series thinking of him as a god but there is no magic or else preventing them to update their opinion of him, only his own atempts to keep on apearances and live up to their expectations. The are people strong enough to kill ainz, namely his own miniums. He was barely able to beat shaltear with a strategy that factored how stupid she is, imagine him facing her albedo and demiurge at the same time. He is doing his best at telling them what they want to hear so they don't turn on him. I completly agree that even in the novels the story seems to be going nowhere with that angle but believe it or not it was once the central narrative of the series back in volume one
|
||||
|
||||
Yttrbio
 Posts: 3653 |
|
|||
|
Which is what's so frustrating about this show. There are tons of great storytelling angles just itching to be told about this weird setup, but since season 1 ended it's been all "lol, powerful guy is powerful."
|
||||
|
||||
|
MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
|
|||
|
Kokuryu. Wow, I can't even decide where to start pointing out that wall of falacies. To begin you seem to have forgoten somewhere along the way that you and me were discussing whether ainz was a villain not wheter he was good at conquest budget management,so your argument for the lizards is not even relevant. Then your arguments for the village is "whats the problem if ainz toys with them? They were probably going to be eaten by a bear or something". Jesus, well since you just basicly admitted to be trolling I am done having this discusion with you
|
||||
|
||||
|
Kokuryu Daimao
Posts: 115 |
|
|||
Is that what we were discussing? I'm sorry, I thought we had moved on from that talk and were on a different topic now. I had already admitted a while ago that enjoy playing the devil's advocate and harbor no strong emotional attachments to Ainz. I will admit that Ainz, as he is portrayed in the Anime so far, can be considered a villain. Wither he remains that way, gets better, gets worse, or is eventually shown to be the lesser of two evils remains unclear. But I also said that I am patient enough to see how the story unfolds. If you no longer want to discuss anything else I'm cool with that too. Take care and I'll see you around the Forums peace |
||||
|
||||
|
NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2316 |
|
|||
I disagree. It does not matter if Ainz's subjects are the most free of free spirits, if we never see it in the anime. Last edited by NeverConvex on Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group