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Merida wrote:

The story is about a group of teenage girls discovering their sexuality, so it's really not that far-fetched to want to see some diversity.

There's nothing wrong with diversity, and you're certainly right that homosexuality does make sense to discuss in this context. But what I find puzzling is why single out homosexuality among the wide amount of diversity which is surely missing? Especially when homosexuality is less common than many other obvious topics also relevant to a discussion of sexuality?

Merida wrote:

Gosh, some of the comments here... Rolling Eyes

It's not like Rebecca wants the manga to be banned for overabundance of heterosexuality.

The story is about a group of teenage girls discovering their sexuality, so it's really not that far-fetched to want to see some diversity. And last time i checked, being gay is not just the latest trend amongst westernes of a certain political leaning...

Nobody says that Rebecca is attacking heterosexuality, at least I personally didn’t mean it. I just wanted to say that it is strange to lower the rate of the work due to the fact that the author doesn't concern the topic interesting for you.

Merida wrote:

Gosh, some of the comments here... Rolling Eyes

It's not like Rebecca wants the manga to be banned for overabundance of heterosexuality.

The story is about a group of teenage girls discovering their sexuality, so it's really not that far-fetched to want to see some diversity. And last time i checked, being gay is not just the latest trend amongst westernes of a certain political leaning...

Your supposed to judge a work based on what it presents and how well it presents it. Your not supposed to look at a work and simply exclaim "Not enough gay people. -10 points."

Its silly to judge a work based on how inclusive or diverse its cast or themes are. You judge something on the merits of its content.

#HayamiLover wrote:

Nobody says that Rebecca is attacking heterosexuality, at least I personally didn’t mean it. I just wanted to say that it is strange to lower the rate of the work due to the fact that the author doesn't concern the topic interesting for you.

It's not about interest, really - I find plenty of heteronormative series very interesting and engaging. It's more a realism issue, and one that, if what people have been saying in earlier comments is true, will be resolved in future volumes. (I haven't read those, so I'm just writing about what's on the page, so to speak.) The book is otherwise rooted enough in "realistic" YA writing that I found it odd, and that was distracting in an otherwise excellent work.

(That of course means "realistic" in my own experience of reality. YMMV)

Last edited by Scalfin on Fri May 10, 2019 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Princess_Irene wrote:

#HayamiLover wrote:

Nobody says that Rebecca is attacking heterosexuality, at least I personally didn’t mean it. I just wanted to say that it is strange to lower the rate of the work due to the fact that the author doesn't concern the topic interesting for you.

It's not about interest, really - I find plenty of heteronormative series very interesting and engaging. It's more a realism issue, and one that, if what people have been saying in earlier comments is true, will be resolved in future volumes. (I haven't read those, so I'm just writing about what's on the page, so to speak.) The book is otherwise rooted enough in "realistic" YA writing that I found it odd, and that was distracting in an otherwise excellent work.

(That of course means "realistic" in my own experience of reality. YMMV)

I mean, we're talking about a category that's estimated to be somewhere between one in twenty (meaning you'd need a primary cast of fourteen to have even odds or there being one) to one in one hundred (sixty-nine, I'm not kidding). As I noted, nobody complains about a lack of Jews, a similarly sized population in the US, or burakumin, a similarly sized population in Japan. This isn't like those Christmas movies that are very careful to not show nonbelievers despite taking place in NYC.

Someone on the fence about the manga might read the review, think: "Ehhhhhhh.... maybe?" and then read that there's no gays and that might push it to "Ehhhh.... nah."

While someone else might be like "Mari Okada? +1, story about female sexuality? +1", "lack of gays? Not a problem for me +0", "A character left underdeveloped? Ehh -1".

1+1+0-1 = 1 "Hey maybe I might check this out."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Scalfin wrote:

As I noted, nobody complains about a lack of Jews, a similarly sized population in the US, or burakumin, a similarly sized population in Japan. This isn't like those Christmas movies that are very careful to not show nonbelievers despite taking place in NYC.

Meet that person. Laughing

Not in manga, of course, but it always has bothered me, and as a child, I really was bothered (and adversely affected) by the only books I could find about kids like me being Holocaust stories.

But I do understand what you mean, going by the numbers. I don't want us to get into a circular discussion here, though, so let's just agree to disagree due to coming at it from different angles/perspectives.

I mean...

We're literally talking about a bunch of sex-averse repressed nerds coming to terms with the reality of sexual content in the media they read and the response some people have is "I hope I'm not exposed to queer content?"

The book is us! The sex-aversion and repression is our sex-aversion and repression! I mean, I thought Mari Okada's work was a bit symbolism-heavy but maybe it just wasn't obvious enough!!

nargun wrote:

"I hope I'm not exposed to queer content?"

You quite literally havnt read the discussion if thats what you think its about.

Princess_Irene wrote:

#HayamiLover wrote:

Nobody says that Rebecca is attacking heterosexuality, at least I personally didn’t mean it. I just wanted to say that it is strange to lower the rate of the work due to the fact that the author doesn't concern the topic interesting for you.

It's not about interest, really - I find plenty of heteronormative series very interesting and engaging. It's more a realism issue, and one that, if what people have been saying in earlier comments is true, will be resolved in future volumes. (I haven't read those, so I'm just writing about what's on the page, so to speak.) The book is otherwise rooted enough in "realistic" YA writing that I found it odd, and that was distracting in an otherwise excellent work.

(That of course means "realistic" in my own experience of reality. YMMV)

Realistic? It is rather strange to hear this at a time when the most popular romance of the past year is Yagatte Kimi ni Naru, where the author purposefully tries to deconstruct the impression about yuri as works about worlds inhabited exclusively by happy lesbians.

Realism is a valid depiction of reality, and not the addition of something to the work just because it exists. So, I am not against a realistic depiction of homosexuality and fully agree with you that if the work claims to study female sexuality, then it will obviously benefit from adding a lesbian subplot. But this should be added wisely and attentively to the real experience of qeer people, and not be added simply because qeer women exist.

Princess_Irene wrote:

Scalfin wrote:

As I noted, nobody complains about a lack of Jews, a similarly sized population in the US, or burakumin, a similarly sized population in Japan. This isn't like those Christmas movies that are very careful to not show nonbelievers despite taking place in NYC.

Meet that person. Laughing

Not in manga, of course, but it always has bothered me, and as a child, I really was bothered (and adversely affected) by the only books I could find about kids like me being Holocaust stories.

But I do understand what you mean, going by the numbers. I don't want us to get into a circular discussion here, though, so let's just agree to disagree due to coming at it from different angles/perspectives.

You are not alone, the whole story of the ancestors of my mother is connected with the Ukrainian Jewish community and I know from experience how to be a victim of discrimination or rejoice when even a minor character on the screen turns out to be “like you”. By the way, this is the reason why I also have an interest in any representation of Burakumin in anime and manga. Honestly, I still haven't seen a single such character.

I just think that such issues should be resolved wisely and without any "special" emphasis. For example, the Hourou Musuko and Aoi Hana never try to be "intentionally" gay or state that their characters are special. But at the same time, Shimura shows us that LGBT people are exactly the same people as others. They may be attracted by the same sex or their gender identity may not coincide with their biological sex, but these are the same people with their desires, fears, experiences and dreams.

However, I am not trying to blame or reproach you for anything, it’s just my personal opinion. If I was something toxic, then I ask you to excuse me for any possible misunderstandings.

Princess_Irene wrote:

It was more a hope
-snip-
Remember that this is only a review of volume one, and unlike some of the commenters, I haven't read beyond it.

Alright, that's good and makes sense to me (as I said earlier, always thought non-het was possible in this story). I did get the impression that you've only read the first volume from earlier comments. I was just weary as to the potential that the series was being marketed as having non-het relationships in it, leading to the comment in the negative column. Good to see that isn't the case.

I look forward to the anime, and future reviews of the manga. As I mentioned, Okada is batting 0.500 for me (with the works I've seen), so I want some more insight as to how she writes the characters' development before I decide to part with my money. Laughing

#HayamiLover wrote:

However, I am not trying to blame or reproach you for anything, it’s just my personal opinion. If I was something toxic, then I ask you to excuse me for any possible misunderstandings.

Don't worry, you didn't offend me and you've been very clear about what you mean. These are tricky topics and we all just have to do our best with them, whatever that may be. I knew what I was opening up the discussion for when I wrote the review.

My family was from the same region of the world (on one side, anyway; the other's Sephardic) as your mother's. It makes for some difficult family history, doesn't it?

Princess_Irene wrote:

#HayamiLover wrote:

However, I am not trying to blame or reproach you for anything, it’s just my personal opinion. If I was something toxic, then I ask you to excuse me for any possible misunderstandings.

Don't worry, you didn't offend me and you've been very clear about what you mean. These are tricky topics and we all just have to do our best with them, whatever that may be. I knew what I was opening up the discussion for when I wrote the review.

My family was from the same region of the world (on one side, anyway; the other's Sephardic) as your mother's. It makes for some difficult family history, doesn't it?

Well, I always worry, because English is obviously not my native language and I still can’t get used to the Western norms of communication. In general, if we are talking about representation, which organically builds qeer characters into a realistic setting, then I’m all for it.

Yeah. My father was a typical European traditionalist, so that I could watch the clash of cultures in real time, so to speak.

I personally do hope this is explored later. Not because I have any particular agenda (I'm not a lesbian woman and don't speak for them, and I'm also not a heterosexual man who wants to gawk at lesbians) but because exploring the idea of same sex love is genuinely a big thing for a lot of girls growing up, even if it's not something everyone is into. It comes up time and time again in literature through the ages across many cultures and the erasure of homosexuality/bisexuality from the narrative means that it is often brushed aside as 'girls being girls' and ignored. In a manga with this kind of theme it would be a shame to skip over the fact that girls, who are culturally shamed for being interested in sex in both Japan and the US, and socialized very differently to boys, frequently nurture feelings for other girls (and even female teachers, though I don't especially want this manga to go that way!)

I can't think of a single nominally straight girl I knew in my teens - which was a long time ago now - who grew up completely isolated from thoughts of other women. A lot of them experimented and it was a frequent topic of discussion even amongst those with no personal interest in that department.

It feels as though a purely heterosexual take on this subject matter would be shortchanging its themes and oversimplifying female sexuality, and I'm glad to hear that this aspect is not ignored by its creators. I'm looking forward to collecting the series.

@Lupica I can remind you of the words of Brando, who said “many men experimented” and, generally speaking as a man, I want to say that even perfectly straight guys often joke or talk about homosexuality. Honestly, I absolutely do not understand where the modern stereotype came from that straight people are completely afraid of people of the same sex and think that even friendly hugs are “to gay”.

But once the conversation has gone about this, I want to remind you of the pile of modern all-female works that try to talk about the experience of young girls with the complete removal of not only their interest in the opposite sex, but even the removal of any male characters in general.

I'm not talking about MariMite or Eupho, where the theme of romantic friendship and situational homosexuality was used either in the right historical or cultural context, but about a show like Love Live that someone even tries to call feminist and having "real women's experience".

I am telling you this is not to translate arrows or complain about a small number of guys in all-female teen dramas. I'm not even talking about the difference of cultures. And in order to show how versatile this issue is and how difficult it is to find its proper presentation in modern media.

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