Forum - View topicNEWS: GDH Int'l Head Condemns Illegal Anime Distribution
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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And here's a question I have for you: What would you do if some stranger hits you hard in the guts or kicks you hard in the groin? Are you going to take it? That's been the status quo of the pro-moe otaku-tachi since the early 90s. Is that your status quo as well? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I gotta say, I realize you've made this your pet issue and all, but you pretty much do manage to bring it up in every thread you post in. This subject has absolutely nothing at all to do with the news article, so basically, you're derailing. I would suggest you start a separate thread about this in the Anime forum and get it out of your system there. |
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Liberator1997
Posts: 2 |
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I don't think this is about entitlement or rights, but more of having equal access. As a Japanese fan can watch any latest anime in its entirety for free (excluding the delievery cost such as cable) before deciding to make a DVD purchase, shouldn't fans from America and elsewhere be able to do the same? It is hard to understand why the Japanese studios are not taking the technology already available to distrubute their product worldwide. They only need to hire the translators and technical staffs to do translate the script and put in the subtitles, and they can do their own distribution and charge people a reasonable price for downloading. With many studios already offshoring some of their animation work to places like China, Korea, and Vietnam, it should not take too much extra effort to find qualify translators in whatever language they like to distribute their shows in. And in terms of "previewing," I just want to see how my watching of free anime have hurt or help the industry. One of the show I am currently being previewing is Death Note, one episode a week, every week, on Adult Swim. Since this show is not really fit my personal preference, I am unlikely to purchase any Death Note DVD, just like many Japanese who only watch the same program on TV. Compare this with two other shows I currently watches one episode a week by fansub, Sky Girls and Clannad. Both series have resulted in me importing various official music CDs, calander, figurine, and artbook due to my free viewing. Now I can only speak for myself, but surely I am making a contribution due to my fansub viewing; unlike my viewing of Death Note on Adult Swim, which will not earn the show's owner anything from me. If my current and future purchase of merchandises from anime currently shown in Japan is somehow driving the industry to the ground, someone please enlighten me. As I see the situation at the moment, anime fans in America, or outside Japan in general, are being treated as second class fans, who are paying more, while getting alot less. I can understand paying more, as anime should be consider a luxury good, and being imported just add to the overall cost. However, I can't comprehend why we should be getting less in term of quantity (as not all shows are licensed and available for purchase). And the time needed to get the license and the process of localization (dubbing) just make the matter worse. I think most fans are not looking for any special treatment, but just a legal way to enjoy this hobby like their Japanese counterpart. Whenever people are place in a second class position with less rights and/or access, they will find ways to balance the situation. This is not a justification, but only to show cause and effect. The technology is available, and it is the studios and companies involves to work out any legal or other problems so they can distrubte their work worldwide. With information being able to go from one location to anywhere else in mere seconds, the anime industry, like any other, needs to improve their business model, both for their own profit and the public enjoyment. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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tissuebubble
Posts: 49 |
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That was an unfortunate oversight on my part. Should pay more attention to my firefox spell checker. Thank you for pointing that out.
Don't know who that is and don't care. Just like your parents can't steal your "only son" title you can't steal exclusivity. It can be made so it no longer exists (as someone else has rights to it) but it is not stolen just not existing.
Still have those rights under the law. Never took them. They still exist. Someone can infringe upon those rights but can't steal them. The law grants you protection no matter what. My making a dvd and giving it to a friend never took that way.
Retailing pirated material is a crime. You are stealing revenue. Pirating something is not a crime. You steal nothing. It is civil and a judge will determine damages. (US based)
Fansubs are a transitive work. I know they fail fair use clauses but it is the point that there is no way to say where one ends and another begins that is important. You are weaving in a different topic. I'm talking about how those problems make it distinct from stealing. Not that it is legal.
Not an analogy. It is an example of how it isn't stealing. I only made the point you are wrong calling it stealing. Nothing more. I never once tried to relate this back to fansubs being legal.
Of course not. Laws are always interpreted and reinterpreted.
1) You aren't "taking" anything. It doesn't even belong to someone. We just give someone the right to control it for a certain amount of time. 2) I have never heard a fansubber saying they are protected under free speech. How you came to think that is beyond me. Most know it is illegal and do it because they think it is a good thing (helps out the community), like doing it (personal choice), or even they just want to shove it to the corporations (many dvd rippers think that). Never heard someone think they are making some kind of statement out of it.
Poorly worded, granted. But easily understandable. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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What? The delivery cost is the payment. Watching something on cable is not watching it for free.
My problem with you is you act like following the rules most of the time redeems the times you do not. Paying for products is what you're supposed to do. I'm not saying you're horrible for what you've done, but you need to understand that you aren't legally or morally justified in doing so. That's the cost of watching a fansub, take it or leave it.
For the same reasons anime is priced differently than domestic content, it is available differently. There are certain realities about foreign trade that influence what is available to you. If you want first class treatment, you just have to live in Japan. Hey, that's what I'm aiming at!
You're contradicting yourself: when it comes to business, the markets don't treat each other equally because they are unique unto themselves. Its understandable you feel left out, but that's just how it is. On the bright side, you could've been going through this 10 years ago. Try to acknowledge the good with the bad; lots of shows that are green lighted for foreign release are compatible simply on the basis that they are well done. There's a lot of crap you're missing out on too. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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Not to mention a growing percentage of fans there import OUR dvd releases because they get more and it costs less. So yes, we are treated like second class fans when we get more for less. 
Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Oh I'll agree with you both. Japanese fans are even more screwed than we are. I don't know why I'd promote that point though. People might be pushed to notice the overt problems of monopolies like copyright, which let copyright "owners" charge whatever they feel like.
Aside from that I'll admit fansubbers have to deal with the legal facts that what they do is illegal. But saying it's a fact that it's immoral is based on a specific ideology regarding copyright that has only existed for a short time (relatively), and is 100% based on axioms of your own beliefs that many people do not hold. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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What on Earth makes you think you have a right to "equal access"? Or any access for that matter? The fact that you don't have something doesn't make you entitled to it. If you want to be treated just like a Japanese fan there is a simple, legal and ethical answer - move to Japan.
Piffle.
You think it's financially viable to license every show, do you?
No special treatment? You want everything, for free, right now. That's pretty special treatment. And if you're looking for a legal way, aren't you rather jumping the gun by downloading now when it clearly isn't legal?
Repeat after me: "Access to anime is not a right, access to anime is not a right, access to anime is not a right..." Also...didn't you start off your post by saying it's not about entitlement or rights? You're contradicting yourself. |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Your parents can take away that title (by having a second son). It's not stealing because breeding is legal. Taking without legal justification, however, is stealing. That's what stealing means.
On the contrary, whilst they retain the theoretical entitlement to the right the actual exclusivity has been taken and cannot be returned. Something tangible has been lost.
Rubbish - this is just weasle-worded semantics. Every child learns the difference between quoting and copying. Every adult knows the difference between utilising and stealing.
Okay, so summarising isn't stealing. Since summarising isn't wholesale copying (by definition) it isn't relevant. You're obscuring the issue.
Yes they are - but they're interpreted according to rules, not according to some pseudo-libertarian philosophy.
You might not think it should belong to someone but it does. Legally it absolutely does. You may despise the very idea of intellectual property rights but the fact remains that those rights have been granted under the law. Whether or not the rights are temporary is irrelevant - just as the temporary nature of a lease or a license doesn't undermine the legal rights of lease and license holders.
Then evidently you've not been paying attention in the dozen-a-week fansub debates here on ANN. If you want an example, check out the latest Answerman column. |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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With all due respect to the moderator(s); it would be an understatement for me to say that I had it up to here with the crapstorms caused over "free anime" and "fansubs." (Just like the Answerman now.) Like all things that had started out to be good; it had been deteriorated into, what companies are now callng, a removal of the value of anime. I've heard about "quickie subs," "digi-subs," "fansub drama," and the growing professionalization of the infamous "fandubs." And Gonzo's rep came out and said that "you're tripping the shopkeeper who's chasing after the burglar." Yet the crapstorm still continues? I, for one, don't want to see the anime industry crash. Because now the companies are planning on going after those who upload the raws; us fans will be robbed of our ability to judge what's allowed to come into the United States. (Or that's how it used to work.) However... If it forces those who fling insults... If it ticks off those were happy that they didn't have to pay a cent for "free anime..." If it can get companies like Bandai Visual, Geneon, and JapanAnime to do actual market research... If it can force the "miserable people who like to feel superior over animated miserable people" to keep their shadow-bullying out of our hobby... Then yes. I would love for the anime industry to crash so hard that the chards draw blood. I would still like to know if the anime "fan" likes getting hit in the stomach since they like seeing anime characters getting hit in the stomach without being able to defend themselves. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Why should they? The product is MADE FOR JAPAN. The same can be said (actually on an even larger scale) for our American product, but outside of a few huge titles like Harry Potter, other countries have to wait to receive our American movies & tv shows. When the American company gets around to releasing a title world-wide, they do, but you really don't think Japan is watching Smallville the same week we see it brand new, do you? We don't have the right to everything airing in Britain, do we? They even (pretty much) speak the same language, but I don't notice anything outside a BBC channel on my cable & I'm not even sure how old the shows are(I'm pretty positive Monty Python is from the '70's) So why do Americans deserve to see a product made for another country prior to the owning company choosing to release it here? Because we can't wait like everyone else? We're a nation of spoiled children?
But Death Note is airing on tv meaning it's been bought by Adult Swim because they believe they can pull in enough viewers to put their ratings in a target area which means they can charge those advertisers $XXX for commercial time & their stock, if their have stock, looks attractive. Viz is happy because they know not everyone will buy the show, but a certain percentage-10, 30, 50%-will & the sales of Death Note will probably be superior to Flame of Recca (which I did buy) How could you NOT know that you wouldn't like Death Note just by reading the synopsis or any of the TONS of internet comments. You say it's not your style. I know I like yaoi so I buy all the yaoi I can. Not into Yuri, so I don't buy it. Why would I have to preview a yuri title to see if I like it or not? Wouldn't that be a waste of my time? I already know I have no interest whatsoever in Clannad, so why would I bother reading the manga as a preview(which I do use as a tool to decide if I want to buy the anime since anime is often much more expensive. If I buy a few manga volumes at $5-$6 & figure out by vol 3 I dislike it, then I'm out less than the cost of the usual anime dvd, right? Yes, the anime can be wildly different, but if I dislike the characters in the manga, then I will likely dislike the anime because I'm a character-driven fan--the titles I dislike most are the ones where I can't get into the characters which is why I had a very hard time with Death Note because Light is an ass. I finished it because I wanted to see him fry & I knew he had to get taken down somehow by the way he was behaving (unless it was going to be one of those bleak titles where the evil forces cannot be overthrown which I was gambling it wasn't)
No, you're looking for special treatment. You're asking anime, a niche market, to be treated the same as the premium (Spiderman, whatever) market titles. Why should it? How does it benefit anyone outside the spoiled, impatient fans? So the Japanese company is paid in full by the Japanese airings & marketing. Who cares? What are the screenwriters on strike over? Getting more than a nickle per dvd & a piece of the new technology like cell phone content. THe Japanese creative team doesn't deserve the same thing? A piece of dvd sales in every market the title is sold in? If I made screenshots of practically every scene of a show along with the dialogue & sold copies of basically the whole show in print form, I bet someone would decide it was outside of "fair use". Anime is art. Fansubbers are basically vandals "improving" a wall with their additional "art", but they have no right to monkey with said art. The licensees pay their bucks & gain the right to play with it. They have the owner's permission having greased the palms of the owners so they gain the right to paint the wall all they want. I say go after the fansubbers. They're the ones monkeying with the product. Nail a few of them & the others will likely go away. |
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tissuebubble
Posts: 49 |
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That is the problem. In a globalized world you can't have region locking like before. Companies are starting to see that. Harry Potter showed that they are moving into the global arena and willing to play. Yes, TV stations know that the moment their shows are done they are in other countries. Australia I know is a big offender of this. So is Sweden and so many other countries. This isn't an American thing. It is a global thing. It has to do with the spread of information. No longer am I forced to play by he media companies rules. A moment something happens in a country I can see it online. A riot in Paris? Video in my email. Cool cartoon in India? Someone translated it and it is up on bittorrent. The world is getting smaller. And that is why media companies must move towards faster releases worldwide. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Unfortunately for anime, their audience is young & in the know about computers.
Not everyone downloads. I work with many, many adults who are barely functional on a computer-just as much as they have to be to get their work completed & they do not have a computer at home. Your generation is all computer literate. Mine (over 40) largely is not. We're the generation that many fought tooth & nail against learning this stuff, so titles aimed at our market may or may not be on the net in Japan the day after they air here. My father uses his computer for email & to play Diabolo, period. No net surfing. My mom doesn't touch the computer. My mother-in-law doesn't touch the computer. So nailing the people putting up the subs would put a damper on things. Part of the issue is people were trying to get the net off the ground, so they fought various regulations & things. The net isn't going away, so maybe they could work on toughening up the laws because although the net makes it seem we're a world-wide universal place, we aren't. American law is American law. Japanese law is Japanese law. If I go to France, I don't expect to get off on any violations of their law with the excuse "I'm American. I didn't know". When we have a world president, then we'll be a united world, but until then, it's an illusion. Communication improvements is vastly different from world-wide distribution of anything. Knowing what happened in a news article 5 minutes ago is vastly different from seeing a tv show that aired in Japan or Denmark yesterday. News is news. Entertainment doesn't carry the same level of importance as someone blowing up the World Trade Center. Harry Potter, Spiderman, etc are EXCEPTIONS to the distribution rules. Last I read, England gets our tv shows maybe 6 months later. (April when we get them in September or October?) And that's not necessarily all our shows--just the ones someone decides to bring over. The majority of smaller titles get rolled out on different days, sometimes months after their American debut, again if ever. THis is why I feel fansubs have outlived their usefulness. We no longer need to preview anime in this way, particularly considering there really isn't a similar model. I don't see people smuggling in homemade tapes of whatever the top show in Sweden this week & distributing fansubs to promote it in the hopes of it being licensed here. I know there's a large hispanic market here, but the stuff brought up from South America seems to be aimed at that market & thus isn't fansubbed. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Granted, but saying so isn't going to make people stop wanting or expecting it. You have to prove for them why they should "do without" until it's released. You are so far from passing that marker when you go over these types of details. I agree with you on this point, but it really doesn't matter if what is being asked for is "special" when the alternative for the anime industry is that they potentially are losing these sales. Since you obviously do believe that they are losing these sales (I am not sure one way or another), you should be trying to help the industry figure out how it can do better. Maintaining the status quo isn't going to do anything. Going after downloading or even uploading is a move made of failure. The RIAA and MPAA have done it and they have failed miserably. Yet we continue to see people believe that somehow it can be done better. Why? Would you spend even more money on lawyers and copy protection than they do? This is a huge gamble based on how you think people will react (buying more because they lack free sources). You have to know in advance that the majority of people who watch anime would value it without free sources. You have to know that the pirates who are buying and downloading will react positively and not choose instead to avoid purchases. |
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