Forum - View topicEditorial: An Open Letter to the Industry
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Thank you. Meeting of the minds. Agree to respectfully disagree on right to download a program vs right to download art. 
Art makes life beautiful. A can opener makes it easier. I have more respect for the artist
Probably something along the lines where I went here http://archive.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2001/11/05/phantom_edit/index.html The article stated Lucas went from expressing interest in seeing the Phantom Edit to indeed threatening its existance when dvds of it started circulation to the point the alleged Phantom Editor issued an apology at how the copies had taken on a life of their own. Specifically Lucas spokesperson Jeane Cole is quoted from an interview with Zap2It--
Which is somewhat what we're talking with fansubs, so again, I'd lean toward our legal system backing the artist. It really sounds like a very similar situation where a fan-edited(adding subtitles) project takes on a life of its own And I don't get where you're coming off suggesting foreign investments aren't keeping anime going. What about the Gonzo article? That suggests they do give a rat's rear about our piddly little monies. Geneon vanishing from our shores. And when did ADV just say American bucks? I've heard not just from ADV (Comic-cin around 2005 or so before they stopped coming out for a few yrs) but the Comic-con panel of translators (Lost in the Translation panel) that any time you see something along the lines of "Anime Name Project or Committee" you have yourself money coming from all over, including America, Europe, wherever. Just because they put the money in up front doesn't mean they have to release it (ADV & Tactics which they sold to Manga) Britanica- yeah, don't you hate it. Saint Seiya ADV started out higher & then dropped by the 2nd box. Clamp no Kiseki started at $30 per issue, but vanished at volume 6 for months, & now has kicked back up at $20 per issue I still say this(ltr to industry) is a pretty idea, but totally impractical. I still Japanese companies somehow offering their product themselves to us flies in the face of all that regional encoding concept that exists around the world. The whole concept just glazes over my brain for how massive it would be. Why just English? That's not fair. You'd need versions in French, German, etc & all have to be up in days of the Japanese air date. Again, my mind glazes over with how massive the entire project would have to be. We don't even see Hollywood doing this & their resouces are far greater than the anime industry. Criminal charges sound far easier to work out. The biggest drawback to this is the fact international law enforcement agencies are as reluctant to work with one another as our own domestic agencies are. This means cooperation needs to be promoted. Possibly governments need ot bring pressure--If the US helps Japan nail fansubbers, we'd probably expect Japan to help us with people there bootlegging American product-more work for everyone, but ultimately the basics should be in place. The laws may even already exist, just been ignored over the whole logistics issues. Back in 2001 when I asked about calling Immigration about deporting illegals, the officers I work with said Border Control were jerks (or worse), don't bother, but a little 9/11 money & beefed up border security Immigration seems more interesting in taking Illegals off our hands when we have them in custody. I mean even if somehow Anime companies can pull it off, are you trying to suggest these thousands of people downloading Naruto for free will do the right thing & pay $2 per ep for what they're getting for free now? It still sounds like criminal laws will need to be pressed to make this stop Last edited by CCSYueh on Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Well, I have no problems with this, but others had brought up extensively the numbers for this earlier in the thread and they didn't sound very good. I mean, if they could get the thousands of people all watching Naruto to watch it on their service with ads instead, maybe that'd be enough? Maybe. But I don't know for sure. I tend to think they need to have it supported with more than ads, which is why I thought it was worth looking into what options fans in different countries are willing to support. While the US may indeed be smaller than some of the other countries in terms of fansubbing, this is probably due to differences in disposable income. We have more, and they don't. So the amount they are willing to pay for a subscription or episode is probably less than us. That's why it'd really need a separate analysis. I just think if they don't actually ask people and instead just "guess" what people are willing to pay, by looking to itunes and saying "hey, people are buying heroes for 2$, surely we can sell anime for that amount too," they are probably not going to get what they expect. The reason that heroes/etc. can get 2$ by the episode on itunes without subscriptions is that the fanbase is much larger, and people can already watch it on TV free if they aren't willing to pay much (or anything) for it. That's why I think they need not only downloadables but also streaming subscriptions. But the amount they think this should cost and the amount we think it should cost may be different. I think in time market pressures will force things to turn out the way that they need to, but my fear is that they keep blaming fansubs for their issues or people not buying.
I guess for others you may be right, but I certainly don't see it that way. I know some people might be nostalgic for Transformers or GI Joe, etc. While I watched that stuff I don't really have that much nostalgia for it. I thought the Transformers movie was OK, but I wasn't nearly as hyped up about it as others, even though I liked the show when I was a kid. I guess the only cartoons I really feel a little nostalgic for might be the original TMNT or the original Spiderman? Those I think were decent cartoons. I couldn't really imagine buying DVDs of either of them though. If they were on TV again would probably be the only way I'd watch it, or if someone else was into it I'd be up to seeing it again. On the other side of this equation I started Naruto when I was 25 years old. I started watching DBZ when I was about 18. I started watching anime in general, and mostly shonen shows, after I became an adult. I don't think I'm unusually immature or something like that for a 26 y/o. I suppose I'm a bit of a geek/nerd and I'm typical in that role since I also like PC games, linux, etc. I suppose my demographic might be pretty small, but I know there are lots of others like me. Many many people who play world of warcraft pretty much fit in well with me on most things, but a lot of them aren't into anime. I think they could be though, theoretically if it was marketed better. I do understand of course that the costs of advertising are extreme, and it is a big risk. Maybe there is something that anime fans themselves should be doing to encourage/promote anime? I have no idea. I actually believe that is probably why the fansub groups do what they do. They may not be promoting it to help the japanese companies, but they are promoting anime because they like having a community that enjoys what they enjoy. In a way they exist because of demand, but they also have caused that demand to exist because of what they do. I don't actually know why they do what they do, so I'm kind of just taking some guesses. I certainly don't believe they do it out of a hatred for anime or a desire to see it die. |
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james039
Posts: 103 |
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Yes. There's something to be said about American culture exported around the world. It doesn't really matter where you live. As I type this a hollywood film is likely playing on a local Japanese TV station. Japanese satellite is loaded with American television, and a good deal of it subtitled into Japanese, ready for their viewing. In all fairness, it isn't same week broadcasting.. but in an ideal world, they'd get new episodes of Heroes in Japan, with Japanese subtitles the same week it airs here. I'm just saying, wouldn't it be nice if....
Well if it's worth it to the industry then why not? Or maybe anime fansubs aren't hurting things as bad as they claim. On a case per case basis, if an action turns out to be profitable (a pay per view subtitled anime station, airing brand new series' for instance). Then why not give it a go? This isn't about some radical new business model, this is about *monetizing* what already exists (online fansubs), and dumping those profits into the hands of the proper rights holders.
Yes, and no where in my original comments did I suggest otherwise.. I was trying to suggest that the anime broadcasts from Japan be cherry picked for one station to be carried in the US (since expecting 20+ channels of Japanese television is impractical over cable/satellite. But just wait until the technology for IPTV improves, then, anyone, anywhere in the world will be able to watch high quality local TV from around the world, and live!) |
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reanimator
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That's good idea. Actually there are Japanese satellite channels for expatriates who live in the US. Expatriates who live in San Francisco bay area pay local satellite subscription fee for those channels. They show all kinds of mainstream TV shows from Japan. However, they have downside. They rarely show subtitled shows and their anime selection is bad due to their limited scope of marketing. It's only designed toward Japanese people who normally don't watch anime and focused on areas with high Japanese population. I wish they have one channel dedicated Anime, but it will a lot of effort to convince the satellite broadcaster. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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But programmers make the programs that enables the artist in this day and age. It makes little sense to me to value the work of one over the other, because the latter does not exist without the former. I think they are both valuable in some fashion, and this is what makes people desire to share them. If those with whom it is being shared were better about supporting what they value I think it'd be for the better. But no, I personally don't value art more than programming or science or anything like that. |
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babbo
Posts: 274 |
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Agreed. Intellectual property is intellectual property no matter the purpose it serves. The idea of any being valued more than the other for fuzzy warm feelings is ridiculous >.> Hard work was put into both of them and they both serve their own separate purposes. |
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missing_soul
Posts: 44 |
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About fans from all over the world. I live in Hungary ( that's now Europe
 ) and I bought anime on Anime Nation. You'll be surprised: you've got a serious price and availability advantage over (the rare) European distributors. Not to speak of the dub, if it is a correct one. The (cheap standard postal) delivery is correct.
I don't know if that makes me a second class fan compared to those downloading from the States. In my country (and in Middle Europe) there is a TV called Animax 100% devoted to anime. We even have several admittedly small (hungarian sized) conventions, even if I'm not likely to ever visit a convention. The dubs made in our "anime golden age" were famous, they obviously loved their work. A Japanese company recently bought out Animax and airs shows subbed (they also introduced the channel in several "county" of Europe, I suppose it is so much easier to sub in several languages then to dub). There's one exception: they piously dubbed FMA... with an awful result (Ed's Hungarian voice is... unprofessional to say the least ). Now the fanbase here is mostly composed of downloaders. The interesting thing is, that they do read in English fluently. The local "business software and anything else alliance" also made raids (with the help of the police) on local torrent servers (even if there will be probably no lawsuits). Of course the servers were online after an hour or so. They didn't even had to mirror it in more eastern Europe. They did it just home. The world is little and human errors are the same everywhere. If you want to stop fansubs, and you have no money to spend on lawyers, then beat them with content and quality especially before going after them legally I know this story is of little interest for US fans on a US forum. But I suspect you also have a large population who has other language preference then English. I don't remember to have seen Spanish subs on the DVDs I bought. There's a market in Spain you can tap in besides other obvious advantages. And for sure, there are spanish fansubbers so if you've got a difficulty about finding people who could translate... |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Xanas -
My theory is that you don't need to make money on the download service - it just has to pay for itself and I would hope advertising could at least achieve that. Then you can grow your audience and make your profits on sales of physical media to collectors and merchandise licenses. Of course, this would require anime companies to be creating original content and not adapting manga and games / working on behalf of toy manufacturers because for the model above to work, the anime company has to own the rights in order to reap the rewards. I don't really see another way forward because I think any service which requires any level of payment or DRM will provide sufficient excuses for fansubbing to continue. The excuses would be invalid in my opinion but that doesn't change the end result.
Obviously not everybody pays out for nostalgia but the nostalgia market is, nonetheless, big business. Visit any major UK retailer (I presume things are the same in the USA) and you'll see shelf after shelf of DVD reissues of old kids' TV series. A lot of people will pay good money to attempt to recapture a little bit of magic from their childhood.
I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with an adult watching teen-orientated shows - I have got a user name based on a series of children's novels / comic strips after all... I'm just saying that you're not the intended demographic for those shows.
This is an anime forum. We're all geeks and nerds. 
Nor do I - but I do believe that some of them either don't recognise or don't care about the possible repurcussions of what they do. Of course, that applies equally to each and every person who uses their services - with no downloaders, fansubs would be irrelevant. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I think you are right that it would continue, but is it really that bad if it continues for the people who wouldn't pay anyway? I am just saying if it's absolutely impossible to get the revenue from an ad-based service (or they don't have the show available someone might want to watch), they could have a fee. Yes fansubbing would have a reason to continue, but it's the same as piracy of microsoft windows. Microsoft isn't going to make windows free in order to stop that because the majority of pirates aren't going to buy anyway. They make the price at the point where businesses who have to pay, etc. gets them a lot of $, and they make deals with PC manufacturers. But they would at least be making money off those who are willing to pay something which I think is probably a fair amount of them. Having gone to some fansub sites and discussing/reading what they are saying, I do believe it's a substantial crowd (at least of the vocal people) that are willing to do something. It's just a lot of them are not interested in physical product for shows they only ever want to watch once. I think I can understand that point of view. Last edited by Xanas on Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jonasan
ANN Video Director & Producer
 Posts: 56 |
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This marks the 700th post on this record breaking thread
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sdhd
Posts: 169 |
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I paid $3.99 for four video downloads. The videos download is dvd quality as promised. I would have continue to pay for downloads on other animes, but the lack of customer services response to my emails deterred me from future purchase of videos download. In the future I will buy dvds instead. I am an anime fan, but if the customer services isn't there than I am not buying.
I would have to say that because of fansub that I am spending about $50-$100 each month buying anime. Consider that the anime companies spent $0 to get me buying animes. When the anime company licensed the anime it is already selling itself. The onnoying thing that anime dvds have are the so called bonus trailers. I will only buy animes that I know I would watch over and over again. Besides, I also buy manga on a monthly basis on such titles as Eyeshield 21, Whistle!, and Naruto and so on. What I don't understand is that why can't anime companies see which manga are selling well and license the anime of that manga? |
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Arcwave
 Posts: 246 Location: Seattle |
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I'm in the industry and I download fansubs. Everyone does it.
The letter is right, it's time for change. Jesse tricofilms.com |
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missing_soul
Posts: 44 |
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All right, an idea:
your problem: kids can't pay. You pay the license fee once. There's a half correct solution to that. It depends on your ethical sense if you're going to abuse it. The industry get together in one happy bunch of allies. Set up an account for kids over 18 (or whatever your usual age limit). They can download anime, for a retail price in an encrypted stream. You're going to give them a workstation software to be registered with a personal software key. Each downloaded anime will charge their account (again: with a streaming fee). Your streaming fee will be different for dubbed and subbed anime. When they grow up they can buy it off in your online stores. Once you implemented this, you can go after the subbers and be the (almost) good guys. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I have no idea of the truth of his statement or not, but I don't think your statement is necessarily correct either. (Well, except the "everyone does it" I know you are right on that)
The rest is a huge assumption on your part to believe that everyone who is an interested party must by necessity believe in copyright to the extent that you do. I have done a little bit of programming (mainly access vba at work) and web development (which I do get paid a little for) and I would like to be a real programmer, but that doesn't make me expect people not to copy. On the contrary if what I make is useful I'd like to know as many people as possible are using it. Obviously you want people to pay/support when they can, but fansubs have nothing to do with people not paying. That is the persons choice not to pay because they can get it free. They could be buying dvds as well as many are doing. Instead of trying to eliminate fansubs it's best you teach those who can pay that they should do so, because the industry requires it to continue. |
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