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Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Pornography for Women
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konkonsn
 Posts: 172 Location: Illinois |
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Yay! That's what I was going to say, but you saved me typing. You wouldn't happen to live in Illinois, btw (does IC mean anything to you  )?
I've said it in another Chicks on Anime discussion, but I do think the rape fantasy has something to do with Brett Kahr's study on the why's of sexual fantasies. That is, instead of denying the terrible things in our world, we make fetishes out of them to make them less troubling. Similar in how horror movies exist so we can laugh or have some control over death. Women, especially, had (and still have to) deal with being controlled, and visualizing submission as sexual would make it less displeasing.
Oh my, I missed this (prolly because I backed out of that thread when I saw it going nowhere). People seem to have this idea that, "Because nobody explicitly says it," that means it doesn't exist. It's like how people say racism (in America...damn, I'm turning into Bandit Keith) doesn't exist because people don't say, "We're not hiring you because you're black." Instead, people say, "We're not hiring you because you're not as qualified as the (white) person sitting next to you." What is being ignored are the decades where whites were told they could have any job they wanted while blacks were told they had to keep their heads low. Then that generation taught their kids the same thing, who then taught their kids the same thing, etc. Oh, and the whole racism leading to poverty leading to crappy schools which still hasn't be solved yet. And the biases that still live in our thoughts; I mean, when the majority of crime you see is committed by a minority, when the majority of well-to-do people in commercials and sitcoms are white, when the majority of interviewers for jobs are white males who, like most normal people, favor those who are most like them... So yeah. It's not that women "choose" these lesser paying careers. It's that when you tell a female 5th grader that a "scientist was working in a lab one day," ask her to describe what the scientist looks like, and she says, "He's got brown hair...," you pretty much fail right there. As for whether porno is harmful to its consumers, it'd be awesome if y'all bought Jackson Katz's books and read his views on the subject (as well as how men need to fight sexism). But since that's highly unlikely, here are links (all I did was google "pornography and violence too...nothing fancy): http://new.vawnet.org/category/Documents.php?docid=418&category_id=695 http://www.vsdvalliance.org/secPublications/pandsv.pdf http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIVC.html Last edited by konkonsn on Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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No, sorry, I live in Connecticut. I'm glad my long rambling post kept you from having to, though. I know it took me forever to get it down...
I totally agree, and going along with what i was saying before, domination and submission (ie, control) is something that is very easily sexualized. It simplifies things and takes the difficulties in decision-making and responsibility away from people. There really isn't necessarily anything wrong with wanting to give up that sort of control (especially with such a baser instinct as sexual desire), in a safe, fantasy context, anyway. As long as people don't linger there too long or try to take those desires outside of that safe environment, I don't really see the harm in letting anyone explore it. |
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Unit 03.5-ish
Posts: 1540 Location: This space for rent |
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I understand the fantasy of giving up control to another person, but in these cases it is often with CONSENT that such is done; rape fantasy doesn't really highlight the reality of rape as the female is often into the act and she doesn't mind the...ahem, attentions of the male.
But actual rape-rape is a disgusting criminal act that I find impossible to condone. Even rape fantasy makes me a bit squeamish. But again, to bring up Variable Geo Neo, what's really disturbing is that within the anime itself, the crowds watching the matches get turned on by seeing some poor girl having a bunch of phalluses forcibly inserted into her...that's just indescribably sick. |
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B-503_MIA
 Posts: 149 Location: Green Bay, WI |
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An excellent & thought provoking discussion...
My wife & I attended Anime Central a few years back & I "wandered" into the H viewing room after she turned in for the evening. Can't remember the name of the show but I think it had "Ogre" in the title, didn't even stick around for the whole thing. Typical demon-rape stuff (doesn't do it for me, but I know...), one of the show's female characters started to <ahem> take care of herself as she watched the demon find new victims. It was fairly uncomfortable to watch & it got to the point that the majority of the audience started MST3K-ing the show in an attempt to make it a little more pallatable. I lean towards Unit 03.5-ish's way of thinking regarding forced sex &/or rape... Also folks, remember what comedian Patton Oswalt says- "Your deepest, darkest, dirtiest fantasy is someone else's pain in the @ss job that they actually stress over" (or something like that, can't remember the exact quote) |
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muppsatan
 Posts: 27 |
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Actually it's pretty natural to be turned on by rape porn for a normal human being(as well as being turned on by most sexual imagery) and it does not always mean you are a sick fudge who wants women to be raped. |
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Unit 03.5-ish
Posts: 1540 Location: This space for rent |
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Rape is, by its very nature, misogynistic (or in the reverse/rarer case, misandristic). Even the "fantasy" makes me feel weird, because it doesn't sit right with me. Humans, by their very nature, are characterized and set apart from other animals by two things: the ability to speak in actual languages, and complete free will. If you take one or both of those things away, that leaves an empty shell of a person behind. I guess what disturbs me about rape is the idea of being robbed of your will and being forced into actions you probably didn't want to take part in in the first place.
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poonk
 Posts: 1490 Location: In the Library with Philip |
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As a few others have similarly noted, I was actually expecting more about porn made for women, not just how women relate to mainstream (read: male-oriented) porn. Not that the latter discussion isn't interesting, it's just not what I expected from the title.
My only real exposure to porn is via hardcore yaoi titles and certain Japanese GVs (gay videos), both of which, while made for women, do not actually feature women. So I think it's interesting that a lot of the talk of porn so far has to do with degradation of women, because my experience sort of sidesteps a lot of those issues (not that I don't realize it exists, of course; I've heard quite enough appalling hentai synopses). This is still a very fascinating & informative conversation but I just hope at some point in the future the Chicks will touch on porn that is female-oriented (yaoi or het) and perhaps mention some non-degrading hentai titles. |
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bamboochopsticks
Posts: 1 |
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I've always done that. I don't pick my character as representation of myself, but rather place myself as an "observer" of a different character, that being the female character i made. I attribute any accumulated awesomeness to her. I'm not a "roleplayer" so when im talking to other players, i see myself as a observer-player talking to other players. Think of it like pokemon, you're cheering on the character you built up. As for other people's (interpretations)/(feelings about) of talking to a seemingly female character whether or not they know who i am or that i am guy or w/e ( i know this feeling since i too get this feeling when i chat with other people who have a different gender character ), from my point of view that feeling ( which may be uncomfortable to some people ) doesn't exist since from my point of view im viewing my character and myself independently, its only to outsiders that it might feel like we are the one and the same. Since it doesn't bother me, and since i enjoy doing it, i'm pretty much disregarding how others feel about it Why female? 1. i prefer female characters 90% of the time in anything 2. id rather look at a female character than a male character a. id rather look at a female character b. its easier to disengage myself and keep myself independant from the character when its not my gender. When i (due to lack of choice) play a male character i notice its much harder to do this, and i feel like attributions of success and failure feel more closely tied to me. Why the whole disengaging thing? 1. i hate fantasy reconstructions of self, that is, i dont like distorting my representation of my self by having a in game avatar that is "me", because i feel it doesn't represent myself as much as i would like or i feel it attributes things to me that i dont feel it shouldnt 2. i like the idea of making my own character and seeing it grow, do stuff, and have things attributed towards them and as i get attached to my characters i tend to think up more stuff for/about them, often they recur in different games with same names etc k, this may or may not only apply to my case also, while im not surprised, i never really knew about this porn that existed for women, and did i read correctly when it was said that the shojo manga marketed towards 13 y/o girls had explicit rape content? 1. the thing about fantasy is that, very often, the things that most normal people fantasize about, aren't actually things they would in fact enjoy in real life, something they might find out if they were to realize that fantasy ( for more unorthodox fantasies ) 2. as for rape, i can't say i understand the tentacle stuff at all, but the fantasy rape stuff could be interesting in the unique perspective one gets on the victim, interactions that are normally impossible to attain. It works because its fantasy, for example, i dont think there any many people who are turned on or w/e in realistic rape depictions for example in now then here there ( ima sokoni iru boku ). Or if they were to see a video of a real person being raped or something. This is concerning the general target audience of the mass produced hentai rape stuff. Theres bound to be a few exceptions but that goes beyond. 3. A "normal" person with a rape fantasy in normal social conditions will understand that consequences aside, acting on it and seeing the results on the victim realizing their actions, would greatly disturb them more than anything. Its a fantasy because its fantasy. If it were reality it would not work out so well. A ghetto analogy would be the tentacle rape monsters. Im sure while there may be people who enjoy seeing those things do their thing in fantasy, if that fantasy were to be realized, it would be a thing of horror and fear that generally noone would enjoy seeing |
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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I have to argue with you about your assumption on what separates animals from humans. Firstly, we are not the only species that communicates through spoken language, we are the only species that communicates through complex spoken language socially. Secondly, free will is not unique among living creatures. In fact, all living creatures have free will. What separates us from other living things is self-awareness, as in animals don't question or even discuss the moral or ethical implications of things like rape. They do or do not do it, and are driven by instincts and basic needs. Perhaps the correct word is "conscience" (not to be confused with "conscious"). I don't think anyone here is arguing the seriousness of actual rape, or the moral implications of actual rape. Obviously it is a terrible thing to have your control taken away for real and forced to do something that invades and harms not only your physical body, but your mental capacity to trust other people. In animals the differences is that there are no social implications involved. They aren't worried about going to the hospital because of any social stigmas related to what happened to them. And as poonk says, there is quite an interesting issue when one considers yaoi as porn for women, since a lot of the same rape fantasies are present, however neither character is a woman. It sort of takes that discomfort about the objectification of women away and reverses the "usual" role in a way that makes it more comfortable(?) for the audience. That's a whole discussion unto itself, though. |
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Kayu1111
Posts: 21 |
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I get off to porn, I am a teenage girl with a lot of libido, and I am not at all ashamed of what I like. Now, it could be the fact that I got into yaoi at a pretty young age, and as far as sexuality and erotica, that's just what I know and am used to. But I can't even FATHOM liking hentai or straight porn.
The one exception would be femdom, but the woman has to be COMPLETELY dominant and the submissive male is emphasized, more than the woman. So I'm too picky for most femdom anyway. My friend (a male sub) spends a lot of time on /d/ has been finding femdom pictures for me that I like. Sometimes the women have strapons, sometimes actual penises.....but whatever. Vaginal sex is......just not the tiniest bit arousing to me. It makes me cringe and click away immediately. This doesn't just apply to porn either. I have zero desire to have a dick in me. zero. what I'm truly offended by are idiots who keep saying that this makes me a lesbian. I've never been attracted to a girl in my life. =| So because I wanna **** guys, and I don't wanna subscribe to society's ideas of female sex roles, i'm somehow gay. the inverted stereotype is also applied to sub males, even if they have no attraction to other guys at all. it's frustrating that people can be so small-minded, that rather than understanding people with different preferences, they try to fit you into a neat little box. also, rape porn is completely disgusting. I cannot give an obective opinion on it, because it's the absolute furthest possible thing from arousing for me. it disgusts me beyond all reason. the only thing I'll say is that fantasies are fantasies, and to each his or her own. but the minute someone commits real rape, I cease to see them as a human being that deserves to keep living on earth. |
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lahkipir
Posts: 1 |
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Sweet
 
AND UR NOT A LEZ P.S. im a guy  ,but i agree with u on the last part only "Normal" thinking 
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Kayu1111
Posts: 21 |
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Ahhhh, I love GVs...and I didn't realize at first they were female-targeted, though i certainly should have ^^; I think, just like some yaoi is targeted at gay males, some GVs also have male audiences in mind. It's kinda odd how sometimes they have scenes where the guy on top is never even shown, other than his hands and other essential body parts as he's doing things to the submissive guy....but like I said, I like seeing the subs, so I don't mind. |
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martina_SMO
Posts: 5 |
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I think the article could have been structured in a much better way.
Anyway, I find it IMMENSELY irritating to read about those (supposedly) "trashy novels". You should never judge what you don't know. And _even_ if you've read a bunch of those "trashy novels", you can't claim you know them. As with any type of production, romance novels too have their history, variety, and most importantly, they have changed throughout the decades. When you refer to the hero who rapes (or imposes himself on) the heroine, you're referring to the romance novels of the 70s and early 80s. Right now (as it was 15+ years ago) it's not at all common to find that kind of situation in romance novels. And also, if you bothered to read an *average* romance, you'd discover that their level -- technically and story-wise -- is actually the same or even better than the *average* shoujo or josei manga. And you'd also find out that the average erotic shoujo manga is actually MUCH, MUCH trashier than the average erotic romance of today. You want to know why? That's because American romance novels have stopped using the rape-fantasy-as-an-excuse-for-your-pleasure a long, long time ago. And they are actually portraying women's sexuality in a very mature and natural way. Not to mention, it would be close to *impossible* to find in today's romances such degrading female figures as those portrayed by Mayu Shinjo, Mashin Osakabe and all the other mangaka who work for "Cheese!" and the like. Girls who are like brainless puppets, who only want to be "raped" by the coolest guy in school, who have no ambition or life beyond that. Girls who don't even think of reacting when the whole male population is bent on harrassing them (Renai Shijo Shugi, anyone?) As to why we still have rape fantasies in shoujo and josei manga, I think there's another point we have to consider. When rape-fantasy appeared in American romances, it was because there were MALE editors requesting that to the authors. And, surprise surprise, the editors of Japanese shoujo and josei manga are mostly... men! I'm not saying that's the only reason why rape fantasies still dominate shoujo and josei erotic manga, but I think that's an important factor in it. |
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Juniper
 Posts: 51 |
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I like that you're getting incredibly defensive because you happen to like reading crappy trashy romance novels. Here's something that will shock you. Those paperback romance novels? They're not considered good writing. They're not considered good storytelling. Anyone who tells you otherwise has just as much of a terrible taste in bad books as you do. Don't get all uppity because you have poor taste. Also, they might be better than some shoujo manga, but just because Product B is better than Product A, doesn't mean they can't both be crap. |
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Eruanna
 Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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Heres what I find a bit irritating about this column. While yes, the discussions are very interesting, and the topics are good ones to think on... the diversity of the opinions presented is not very broad.
All that seemed to happen in this column was an endless repeating of each others opinions, and confimations of each other. Heres some advice: instead of postulating and theorizing on why some girls might enjoy smut wherein the heroine is horribly put down (ie, rape fantasy, all those smut stories with the premis "Guy sexually abuses girl, but girl secretly enjoys it and falls for him), why not ask a girl who actually does enjoy them? Instead of saying "I think some girls like these stories because yadda yadda yadda....".... I find it just a little irksom because no one bothered to as us for our opinions. (Yes, I am one of those girls who enjoys those "degrading" stories) |
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