Forum - View topicWhy do people hate Dubs so much?
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TheVileOne
Posts: 272 Location: Texas |
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If you find Naruto that funny and entertaining, then its doing a good job  .
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10shi
Posts: 2 |
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I'm currently imagining US "anime" dubbed in japanese. Spawn, Justice league, X-men, Spiderman, bunch of dc and marvel comics... etc etc...
I'm wondering what would their reaction be? similar to this? |
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TheVileOne
Posts: 272 Location: Texas |
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You know what the reaction is? Fanboy culture in Japan don't go on message boards and whine about the Japanese dubbing of shows originally recorded in English. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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This is true-- in re: to pronunciation, emphasis occasionally, etc., but it seems to me that the truth is that good acting crosses linguistic boundaries. If a person is getting nitpicky over mispronunciation, etc. of japanese words or names, then I think there's room to debate. But you don't need to know Japanese to know that someone is expressing an emotion realistically in that language. And you don't need to be fluent in English to understand that someone is sounding "forced" when trying to match their speech patterns to the lip movements of a foreign language. The basic nutshell of the matter is that currently, dubbing in the US by studios other than Disney or Dreamworks (or some other comparabley large studio) has a small talent pool to choose from, and it shows (IMO-- it's all in my opinion). The US generally considers itself the most powerful country in the world-- as such, that tends to mean that we don't feel a need to import shows and movies, and therefore we have a very limited pool of experienced voice actors (that is always growing, as more titles are released here). My understanding is that, comparatively, many other countries are importing a lot of US and European movies, and as such they have a far more advanced "industry" set up around dubbing movies and shows. My point- (and this is entirely subjective of course) is that frequently the acting is not as good on the American dub as it is on the Japanese track. I just think it's silly to say that I can't understand the emotional nuances of a language just because I don't speak it. I've heard good VA's in Japanese and, of course, I've heard forced, stunted performances in Japanese. I can tell the difference in English or Japanese or French or Chinese. Now, in regards to the nuances of pronuncitation-- sure, that is hard to understand for one not fluent in the language. Or the cultural significance of accents, etc. Watching things subbed is an imperfect experience, for sure. Personally, I prefer the "equivalent viewing experience" of dubs, where "comparable" accents are introduced in the dub, or comparable slang words etc., that have similar cultural references in English... if the dub is done well. I simply have a low tolerance for bad acting. English dubs __currently__ seem to have more of it. As I write this though, interestingly enough... it occurs to me that I would never think to dub a foreign "film"-- say, "Hero" or "Amelie" or "The Seven Samurai", yet I think nothing of dubbing an anime show or movie. I guess it must have something to do with the disembodied nature of anime characters (versus the actual actor being visible in a movie), and yet-- that does seem like a double standard of sorts that I can't get around...... |
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10shi
Posts: 2 |
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How bout I put it this way. Although certain dubs were done pretty well (most of David Hayter's was done pretty well, often better than their japanese counterpart), there are certain contents that is simply not meant to be translated.
I also agree with those who believe that japanese seiyuus are often better than the US counterpart. More often than not, japanese seiyuus often have more experience and training, they're often paid more and treated with more respect than those here. Now about US anime dubbed into japanese. I dont know their reaction to this yet simply because most of the japanese I've met know very little to nothing of this. However, I do know that they prefer hollywood movies in english subbed japanese better than the japanese dub version. My bottom line is that if in US they can spend the time and money to train and hire better voice actors, I'll probably enjoy anime dubbed in english more than I do now (however, there is the case with the cultural barrier. For example, humor sometimes dont translate very well). |
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DemonEyesLeo
 Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
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You don't need to know Japanese, or any other language for that matter, to know the emotion behind a person's words because emotion is universal and innate. Even indeginous African Bushmen can differentiate between emotions (Edit: for proof read this, 2nd paragraph of section 2, about a psychologist by the name of Paul Ekman). But, I've said this before, emoting is only part of acting, there's the other subtleties of all languages, such as articulation, that, unless you are a fluent speaker of the language (or an extreme case of bad acting), will go in one ear and out the other.
Unless this came from the mouth of a non-English speaker I disagree. Once again, it sounds "forced" because we speak and hear it every single day for however long we've been alive. For someone who hasn't, it'll sound just like it is; foreign sounds that go in one ear and out the other (unless, again, it's a very extreme case). |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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But DemonEyesLeo,
I can tell very much when a Japanese voice track sounds forced, "not smooth", etc. I'm not saying that there aren't things you lose when you can't speak a language-- of course there are. And I agree that some hesitations, etc. are hard to decipher, etc. I just think to put out a blanket statement that you can't tell if a dub is a bad one just because you don't speak the language is untrue. I guess the real point is what do you consider the differnce between "sounding forced" and "lacking emotion". To me, an American dub "sounds forced" __because__ it lacks emotion-- all those silly pauses (that a non-native speaker might not really notice) lead to a lack of proper emotion (which that same non-native would, by your own arguement, notice a lot). It's hard for me to really serperate those two-- one leads to the other. It's the chicken and the egg. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Is that not a blanket statement as well? I don't have very many issues with dubs and american voice acting, at least modern ones. I do have some issues, but no more than I have with japanese voice acting and I make a point to listen to both of any title I purchase. DemonEyes is right, to a degree, there is a lot that you won't pick up on since you don't understand the language, doesn't mean that you'll miss everything but you certainly won't gather it all and in a sense it's the whole "ignorance is bliss" situation since you won't be able to pick up on all the faults it won't seem as faulty as a result. I don't see the lip movement issue as a major problem because in many titles not even the japanese actors bother to match exactly. All of this might have applied 5 years ago but it doesn't matter much today in most situations. The generalizations and blanket statements are tiring. I make an effort to listen and carefully assess both dubs and the quality differences in modern anime aren't that significant, it honestly seems that most of it is in the head of the fanbase after decades of poor dubbing so that it's reached a point objectivity is hardly possible anymore. I'm not saying either situation is better, I've heard bad dubs on both sides, I'm just saying that the "Haha, it's a japanese man so he's superior" concept is outdated. Talk to me 5 years ago and I might have agreed with you, but sorry, times have changed and you might want to step in to modern day. |
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DemonEyesLeo
Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
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You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. So I'll say it again, emotion/tone/and anything else that you can pick up even if you're a non-speaker are only part of acting. As a non-speaker there's more parts that are hard, if not impossible, to pick up when listening and so you are unable to get the full extent of the acting performance, unlike you are able to do if you are a fluent speaker. So I'm not saying that you are completely unable to tell if a dub is bad if you don't speak the language, what I'm saying is that you are unable to get the full, complete acting experience and thus cannot make an accurate judgment on the acting. Yes, you can tell if they're emoting well and projecting their voice in the right places; but how do you know if they're slurring their words, or speaking to fast, or even have a horrible, fake Kansai dialect? All those are parts of acting as well, but you can't tell the full extent of any of these unless you're fluent in the language. Now are there extreme cases where one can tell that it's a bad performance all around? Sure there are, such things exist in any language; but they are rare.
Keonyn's right, this whole thing is a blanket statement. I agree that forced dialogue can lead to a lack of emotion, and vice-versa, but this is not always the case. Say a character is supposed to be sad, and the actor does a perfect job in saying their lines, they speak clearly, and the words flow out of their mouths smoothly and naturally so it sounds great; but they do a terrible job of expressing that the character is sad, in that, if one didn't know that the character was supposed to be sad they'd swear the character was feeling something else. Conversely, let's say another character is supposed to feel rage and anger, and their actor truly brings that out and anyone can tell the character is full of rage; but at the same time, the actor stumbles with their words and makes slight pauses that cause the emotion to sound unnatural. Both these show that forced dialogue doesn't automatically lead to lack of emotion, and that a lack of emotion doesn't always lead to forced dialogue; in some cases yes, but not in all. So how is acting like this classified? Average? Bad? Could be better but not totally unwatchable? That's really up to the individual. But now let's apply this to my earlier argument about how you, as a non-speaker, can't get the full experience of foreign acting. I've shown 2 parts to classifying an acting job: the actor's speech and the emotion. As I've pointed out before, anyone can get emotion because of its universality; but what about the other part, the part of the actor's speech? Do they speak clearly or do they slur? Do the words flow smoothly or are there slight pauses? Again, if you're a non-speaker this other part is extremely hard if not impossible to fully recognize, and so you can only get about, and I'm being very liberal here, half to 3/4 of the acting, but not 100% of it. And by not being able to get all of it, a non-speaker cannot make an accurate judgment of a foreign actor. Once again though, this is not always true as there are extreme cases when it is fully possible to make a more accurate judgment, but these are rare occurances. |
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Steve Berry
Posts: 522 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA |
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I completely agree with you on almost all of this. I've already said so in earlier posts-- "Now, in regards to the nuances of pronuncitation-- sure, that is hard to understand for one not fluent in the language. Or the cultural significance of accents, etc." Your examples of "slurred speech" and "accents" (as I've mentioned before myself) are dead on. I'd throw in slang as well. I agree with all of that, and I've never said otherwise.... I guess the difference is that currently, missing out on those things means less to me than having to experience (what I consider to be a subpar) English language dub that isn't able to really give me that "equivalent experience" that I'm looking for. Oh well, to each their own I suppose. |
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Whatever.
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