Forum - View topicNEWS: Politically-charged Manga Suspended in Japan
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enjin2000
 Posts: 1484 Location: Japan |
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Wrong, ANN. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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True, that is what the U.S. generals and Truman said, at the time, in defense of the decision to use the nuclear bombs. However, later archival evidence has come to light indicating that the casualty estimates were inflated, and deliberately so. They misrepresented the matter, because the real objective of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not merely to end the war against Japan without an invasion - it was also to demonstrate the effects of the nuclear bombs. The intended audience of that demonstration was the Soviet Union.
Historically, "fighting to the death" is almost always rhetoric. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Japan was ready to surrender. It was only a matter of time - certainly, many highly placed persons in the civilian administration, and many generals as well, had had enough. "Fighting to the death" sounds fine - but when it comes down to the crunch, only a cornered enemy fights to the death. Given the chance to surrender, human nature is such that an obviously defeated person will always knuckle under.
You're right about that - but I think that's mostly because of a desire to avoid muddying the water. True, the firebombings were awful, a totally unconscionable terror tactic against a civilian population - and I mean both the firebombings in Japan and the ones in Germany. But the discussion about the nuclear bombs centers on their somewhat unique characteristics. They aren't "just" terror bombs, they're arguably in a class of their own. { A small digression, here: I live in Copenhagen, the holder of an unpleasant world record. In 1807, during the Napoleonic Wars, Copenhagen was the first city ever to suffer a terror bombardment against a civilian population. Under the command of General Wellesley (the later Duke of Wellington), the British firebombed Copenhagen with their new toys: rocket-propelled incendiary grenades. Much later, during WW2, it is reported that Brig. Gen. Arthur "Bomber" Harris, when making the decision to firebomb Dresden, said: "We'll Copenhagen them!" The military likes to test its new toys, whatever they may be. } And now for something completely different - and totally obnoxious:
Hark, do mine eyes deceive me? Did you just call me a revisionist historian? Did you mean to be deliberately offensive, or are you just too dim to realise how rude that remark was? I expect you to apologise, or justify your remark. - abunai |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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All arguments about the morality of the actions taken in the war aside...
Doesn't anyone else think the real injustice here is that this artist, who was very brave to depict a viewpoint of an event that's very unpopular in Japan, is being persecuted for doing something many artists do? He simply used a reference image. The authenticity of the image is not the issue here...he used it as a compositional guide. Artists use reference images all the time, taking them out of context and adapting them to fit their work. Even if this image is a fake, the atrocities of Nanjing are certainly not. Innocent women and children were raped and killed...most people on this board concede at least this much. Would there have been any less protests had he based that panel on the photo of a woman impaled on a stake instead? I really couldn't care less about whether the Japanese government eventually apologizes for Japan's war atrocities or not (and speaking as a Chinese, I can't help but cringe at the hypocracy of the Chinese Communist government, whose regime killed over 30 million of her own people during the cultural revolution with even greater brutality than the Japanese soldiers.) What is troubling was Shueisha's eagerness to kowtow to this supposed minority of Nanjing-deniers. It's not so much a slap in the face to Japan's wartime neighbors as it is a disservice to its own readers. And as the supposed beacon of democracy and free speech in Asia, it's dissapointing to say the least. Last edited by s_j on Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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coachkaveman
Posts: 19 |
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I have to say this topic has to be one of the finest ever discussed on ANN but I am at times dissapointed by enjin2000's comments. Being a moderator, I assume ANN wants you are to be fair and appreciative of everyones opinions but you seem to quickly point out that those commenting do not know what they are talking about or should better research thier data. Additionally you continue to tell posters to read the Japanese text books before they comment upon the topic, this would be nice if we had these books present to us and we could read Japanese. There have been several people who have commented who have attached links to factual data and actual sites who present real information and even then you tell them they are incorrect with this information. If you do have a link or you would like to translate some material for this topic please do so.
Additionally, the main transgression by the artist slightly changing a photograph does not change the fact that Japanese soldiers did rape and murder innocents in China. This subject just seems to be very sensitive to all parties envolved and its seems to me that the publishers have created a greater uproar by pulling the manga completely. Opinion: War is bad enough but the actions of the soldiers can be down right unimaginable. With the invention of the camera we have been able to collect the evidence of some of the most vile things humans can do. The Americans in Irac are tame compared to what the Japanese did in Nanking and they recorded much of it. This is why I think many become outraged that the Japanese government wants to deny it happened and or they mention it but only in the context that Nanking was occupied. enjin2000, I do not blame you or direct my comments at you when I say that the Japanese soldiers peformed vile acts in Nanking, I just feel that you and many younger Japanese citizens are given history so filtered by natilonalist/politicians etc that the truth becomes debatable (as with this subject). For awhile I lost my interest in things Japanese but as everyone has stated, you cannot hold people responsible for the actions of a countries army during war and I love anime and the Japanese culture and again returned to this enjoyment. But deep down, I just want to know that the Japanese government takes responsibility for the atrocities commited in Nanking. |
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fractured78
Posts: 13 |
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Being Chinese American as well I agree that the Communist Government is guilty of crimes of a greater magnitude than the Japanese government. However I disagree about whether the Japanese government should apologize or not. Just because be the Chinese murdered millions of their own doesn't make the Rape of Nanjing any less of an atrocity. Sort of like saying, "He murdered someone. Big deal, that other guy murdered 50." I'm not sure if you're making that argument, but that's the vibe I got from your post. As giao_su said I think that the Japanese government and, largely, its people must take responsibility for its actions in WWII. It has nothing to do with blame, but acknowledging it's true history and faults. My ancestors had nothing to do with slavery or the genocide of Native Americans, but as an American I must acknowledge that is in my country's past and do what I can so that something like that never happens again. I share in America's prosperity and so I must share in America's responsibilities. I must say that I have really found most of the comments very enlightening. Though I disagree with enjin about his comments I think we should all give him a little leeway here. He's defending his country on a forum that's not in his native language where a basic tenet of his culture is being criticized quite strongly. That tenet being Japan's role in WWII. For example, I would find it extremely difficult to try to defend the Iraq War on a French forum. (Please take the Iraq thing no further as I wouldn't want to be the cause of this thread go on bad tangent.) |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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It was certainly not my intent to downplay the Japanese government's atrocities by comparing it to that of the Communists. I'm merely illustrating that they are holding Japan to standards that they would never hold themselves to. How can they possibly expect reparations, even an apology in this case without setting a dangerous precedent for themselves?
I simply don't see an apology or reparations from Japan as likely, nor is it going to solve any problems...while it may be the morally right thing to do, it'll create more problems as just about every country starts to sue every other country for what their fathers, grandfathers, or forefathers did during times of war. Anyway, mea culpa for including that statement. For me, the significance of this news story is the plight of this individual artist, not the tangent politics. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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What I find surprising is that these "denial school" persons are allowed into government in the first place. In Europe, especially Germany, any person who holds the believe and vocally states that the holocaust didn't happen would never be allowed to run for government office no matter how small. Last edited by Mohawk52 on Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fractured78
Posts: 13 |
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No question, the Chinese government in general is a bunch of self-serving hypocrites. I definitely do not hold them in high self esteem. That does not mean, however, that the Japanese government and people are still at fault for what happened. And yes, I mean people, but I come from the paradigm of you share in the prosperity, you share in the history. Whether it was "all the military's fault" or "Hirohito's fault" the people have to take responsibility. Ignorance is not an excuse.
I think there's a difference between lawsuits and a government asking for forgiveness or admitting their historical errors. I'm not sure that you make that distinction s_j, it's a personal judgment call on that one. I agree that history should not make us only recall past injustices and anger. However, I also do not believe those injustices can be ignored or forgotten. As for the focus on one artist's plight. I guess it does get lost, somewhat, in this argument about history. However, given that was the artist's intent to depict as well as the deciding factor to why his manga was suspended, I think it's relevant. I often laud Japanese culture for it's emphasis on the collective, of sacrificing individual wants and desires for the greater good. In America I find we too often focus only on ourselves, not giving a damn about the bigger picture. In this situation I think we see the dark side of the reverse culture. The fear of a publisher to rock the boat, or to cause others to lose face. The lack of outcry by the general Japanese public or other manga authors over the silencing of an author. The desire by so many to cover up an important part of Japanese history because "Japanese should be proud of being Japanese." I don't know if there's a point in there, but I guess that's how I view the situation with the author. It's a sad thing to see in a culture that, overall, I respect. Last edited by fractured78 on Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GATSU
Posts: 15336 |
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abunai:
The point is there's a more likely reason the U.S. got to Japan before the Soviets. And that's the fact that most of the Soviet forces were wiped out. They destroyed their own supply centers, for chrissakes! And they didn't have much airpower at the time, so if the Japanese weren't busy fighting the U.S. in the South Pacific, the Soviets would've most likely suffered a blitz attack of their own.
If Vietnam taught us anything, it's that it's not very easy to take down enemy soldiers on an island that could have a lot of hidden snipers and traps.
Actually, it was both, because Hitler overextended his forces on both sides of Europe.
It was, but chose not to. And if I were Stalin, I wouldn't trust a peace treaty with an ally of another country that bailed out on its "non-aggression pact".
Stalin wasn't the nicest of fellows, but I'll still blame Hirohito for what happened to the Japanese.
I don't think it would've mattered, to tell the truth.
Which is why they sent their own soldiers to slam our ships in jets?
Sure, if you don't take cultural norms into account.
What about The Blitz and Pearl Harbor?
I don't like what happened to Dresden, but I don't think the Brits like what happened to London either. s_j:
Mao wasn't much better than Hirohito, but at least when he killed, it wasn't personal.
Hell, I'm still waiting for China to stop harassing Tibet and threatening Taiwan myself. Still, the actions of the current state have nothing to do with the individuals within that state who are still affected by the actions of another state.
Well you can't have it both ways. If you want current domestic and international laws to be upheld, you have to make amends for situations in which those laws were violated and which still have an impact in the present day. fractured:
One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic. -Stalin
If your Chinese, your ancestors were either forced to work on the railroads or denied entry, because of a then racist immigration quota. |
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fractured78
Posts: 13 |
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1. I already knew that. My great grandfather actually worked on the railroads before moving back to China. You know what? Though he was treated like shit in America it allowed him to be quite rich when he returned to China. (Which the communists destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.) 2. It's pretty offensive of you to lecture me about my own history when it has nothing to do with the subject, nor with anything I talked about. I said that my ancestors had nothing to do with slavery. The railroads, bad as they were, and the immigration quotas do not amount to slavery. I don't know, it's sort of like me going up to an African American who's talking about freedom of the press and suddenly saying, "Your ancestors were enslaved by Americans in the past. Bet you didn't know that did you?" 3. I never denied that America did bad things to the Chinese. Chinese in China have and are doing bad things to Chinese. Your point? I just don't see why you threw this into your argument. It lacks relevance and is mildly offensive. I'll leave the content of the rest of your post for other people to pick apart. |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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My family has lost people to both Nanjing and the cultural revolution...so there is no way I would ever think of downplaying or making excuses for either of these events. I don't have any issue with depicting Nanjing as anything but barbarism on the part of the Japanese. I just think people are giving far too much weight over the value of a formal apology from Japan.
I completely agree that there's a difference between a government asking for reparation, and acknowledging wrongdoing. But the atmosphere in Asia, at least those who take issue to this, certainly do not reflect the idea that these two things can be considered separately. If Japan does apolgize, calls for reparation will only become stronger. Surely, the noble thing to do would be to compensate all the comfort women, victims of torture, and families of the countless murdered innocents. Everyone's arguments towards that end is perfectly valid. (I'm a cynic, so I don't see that happening soon.) But the cons still outweigh the pros, in my mind. As far as Japanese textbooks glancing over this subject, or sometimes omitting it completely, I do think that's wrong. It's a travesty and an injustice, but more so to their own youth than to its neighbors. Japanese educators should devote more time to WWII and Nanjing...and I believe most Japanese teachers would like to do just that, if it weren't for the influential 'minority' that seems to hold sway over this issue. The history is perfectly relevant, it's just I'm more outraged at Shueisha for capitulating, rather than the Japanese protesters themselves and their arguments. But enjin's later posts did struck me as slightly dishonest...it really *isn't* about the artist using a falsified photo as reference, and all about the atrocity-deniers determination to silence everything about Nanjing in the media. Just as I and coachkaveman have noted earlier, the whole hoopla over him using a possibly falsified photo is disingenuous and petty. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Yes - and it's straightforwardly the fact that the Soviets didn't declare war until shortly before the Japanese surrender.
Factually wrong on all counts. The Soviet supply in the East was not damaged to any significant extent. The Soviets had a force roughly equivalent in numbers to the Japanese on the mainland, but the Soviet troops were fresh. In terms of air power, neither side had anything to offer. The "burnt earth" strategy was used by the Soviets, but in the European theatre, and earlier, when the Soviets were in retreat before the Wehrmacht. Bringing it into the equation here demonstrates your ignorance of the course of the war.
I would have thought that that was the lesson you were supposed to have learned from Iwo Jima, not Viet Nam.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. Do you even know what you're saying, yourself?
Jets? Oh, never mind. I've almost given up on you. The word you're not grasping here is "desperation". Japan was desperate. All wishful thinking aside, it was clear to anyone with half a grain of sense, on either side of the Pacific, that the war was over - it was only a matter of time. The Japanese military had its hard (or rather, rotten) core of fanatics who were willing to continue the fighting beyond the point of absurdity. But most of them knew they were losing. In a losing situation, you tend to think up desperate tactics. Like using planes as living bombs. There's a very obvious contemporary scenario that I'd use to compare this with, in terms of desperation tactics and using planes as bombs - but that would sidetrack this conversation even further than it already has, so I'll forego it.
You use "cultural norms" as a euphemism to cover your stereotype of the Japanese as belligerent and inscrutable and eager to die for their country in as bloody and futile a manner as possible. Like all stereotypes, this is grounded in ignorance.
Terrible events. So were the Holocaust. Does the fact that one of these was terrible invalidate the fact that the others were terrible, too?
You fail to grasp the point of that anecdote. Harris was, quite clearly, indicating that his goal was not military - it was terroristic. And he knew it.
Oh, we can't have personal feelings in murder, can we....
You are very fond of that quotation, aren't you? Have you considered that this obvious fondness speaks volumes about your personality? One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a tragedy. War is an abomination. And you can quote me on that. - abunai |
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fractured78
Posts: 13 |
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I guess we just disagree with you about whether the apology is worth it s_j. You see my point of view pretty clearly and I think I see yours.
Yeah, I agree the photo is nothing more than an excuse to get rid of something the revisionists don't want. The whole thing is just a sad statement on Japanese culture. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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I think GATSU might have confused jets with the manned rocket-bomb Ouka (桜花), commonly known by American G.I.s as "Baka bomb." Designed for suicide attack against capital ships or B-29 formations, it is a 1.2 tonnes rocket with a pilot and has to be carried by a heavy bomber, which also slows down the bomber significantly and can be easily taken out by American escort fighters before they could reach within the range to launch Ouka. |
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Ranmah
 Posts: 294 Location: Stomp'n on Tokyo Tower |
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The rape of Nanking was a horrible event. It shouldn't be forgotten. I think the Japanese Government needs to appologize for what it did during WWII.
Korea was the first country that Japan "Colonized" and they committed mass acts of cultural genocide (denying their cultural heritage, forcing the Japanese culture on them). To this day many Koreas refuse to buy anything Japanese. Though I think this is relaxing a bit. I think the current acts of the Japanese Government is worrying many people in East Asia. I hope within in my parents lifetime I can see both reunification of Korea and a formal appology by the Japanese Government. Ranmah |
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