Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group B is now closed.
Although a couple of the matches looked interesting early, none of them ended up being close. With 16 votes, the results: B-25: Naruto vs. Sasuke goes ninja on Digidestined vs. Myotismon, 15-1. B-26: Goku vs. Vegeta goes Super-Saiyan on Nabuca vs. Shu, 11-5. B-27: Lelouch vs. Suzaku Geasses Capulets vs. Montague into submission, 11-5. B-28: Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable goes super-mecha on Love Machine vs. Jinnouchis, 14-2. The results of B-25, B-26, and B-28 don't surprise me much, although I had thought that the NTHT duo might be a little more competitive. (And they were early, but the DBZ duo took 6 of the last 7 votes.) The B-27 result flabbergasts me - at least as much because they lost so badly as because they lost at all. I must have been missing something when I watched CG because while I acknowledge that Lelouch/Suzaku belongs in this tournament and maybe even in this round, I just don't see it for them advancing here. That kind of sensationalistic drivel is what people see as a quality rivalry? And I will point out that the arguments used to support their case this round could just as well apply against their foe next round or, for that matter, whoever wins that really ugly struggle on the top side of the bracket. (Really, how does one choose between those two?) Are people really that comfortable with seeing that duo advance to the Final Four? Because none of the other top four in this Group are as "layered" or have the other merits attributed to Lelouch/Suzaku. Anyway, if you want to respond to that diatribe, feel free to add your comments to your next vote. I'll certainly read them once I'm done being pissy about this Group. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group C is now closed.
Results can be found here. Short on time this week, so let’s just get directly to business, shall we? Oh, and errinundra: the great Tutu/Krahe pic that I had been using for the Guide entry is no longer accessible, and that is one that I didn’t transfer to my own hosting. Please either repost it to its original location or else PM me a link where I can find it. (Or email it to me if you don’t have a convenient way to post it.) Group C-25 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Last edited by Key on Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6536 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Key, the present picture is the one I posted. There was another which can be accessed via my nomination post. If you used a different picture I neither remember it nor have a link to it.
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3907 Location: New York state. |
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Match C-25: Princess Tutu vs Princess Krahe (Princess Tutu)
The ballerina steamtrain continues to plow through its weaker competition considering the Gurren Lagann rivalry is nowhere as complex as the Tutu/ Krahe rivalry considering both are fighting for love, both are sympathetic characters with their tragic flaws and both are unwillingly being manipulated by Drosselmeyer in his warped desire to create a tragic ending for both ballerinas. Match C-26: Yang Wen-Li vs Reinhard von Lohengramm (Legend of the Galactic Heroes) Considering LotGH is held by enough people in high standing here on ANN, I'll stick with this rivalry for this round on the grounds that while Gauron and Sousuke's rivalry is legitimately heated, it lacks the ideological drive that the Yang/ Reinhard rivalry seems to have and the FMP rivalry being more black and white with its moral approach. Match C-27: Kouga vs Iga clans (Basilisk) I think it's too early to be taking out the violent and hostile rivalry between these two ninja clans, so I'm planning to keep up my support for them. Match C-28: Mugen vs Jin (Samurai Champloo) While the Lupin/ Zenigata rivalry is fun to see unfold, it does follow the neverending pattern of Lupin always outsmarting the detective and it can get stale rather quick if you don't like this aspect to the Lupin III franchise. Mugen and Jin makes for a more colorful rivalry to follow as both are polar opposites of one another in terms of their upbringing and you can get the sense that both are itching to take each other out if Fuu wasn't around to keep them out of trouble. |
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farichada
 Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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Better early than never, right? No, wait the saying doesn't go like that at all, but I will correct my absenteeism, at least for this round anyways.
Group C-25 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe if only because this rivalry is more elegant and has a more impactful ending/resolution. How can anyone forget the scene where Princess Tutu spoiler[is brutally assaulted by the crows unleashed by Krahe,] but still fights on nonetheless. A very shocking scene to say the least and it highlights the intensity and passion that fuels this rivalry. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Yeah, I'm going to go against the more modern and popular franchise and throw a vote out to Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm. Their rivalry is more deeper, complex, and mufti-faceted than the latter. Sure, the LoGH rivalry is not standard by any means since both characters respect each but also wish only to defeat the other. It also contrasts more than just bad democracy versus a good dictatorship, but passion, impulsiveness and raw talent versus cautiousness, self-doubt, a tactical prowess, and over analysis. An interesting rivalry to say the least since not only does have it a lot to offer; it can really make you start thinking. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Kouga vs. Iga clans Not much to say here, but that the Kouga rivalry seems more developed from the surface. Group C-28 [/i] vs.Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise Mugen vs. Jin, [i]Samurai Champloo[/quote] Here's the kicker for this match up Jin doesn't give a rat's behind in the Mugen vs Jin rivalry, and that saps a lot of its power for me. Beyond being one-sided, it's really static and doesn't have a lot to offer besides awesome fights. And at this point, a rivalry should offer a lot more than cool brawls that are fun to look at. Purely void of any sort of complexity, in my opinion, and that put the nail in the coffin for this rivalry. Plus the whole never-static dynamic for Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata is not only has far more interesting and cool points, but more original and less forgettable points as well. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Hmmm. Maybe it was just a short-term glitch on your host site, then, because last night when I was updating the Guide files that picture wasn't working. Group C-25 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann The Two Princesses' conflict covers a much greater chunk of the series, has a wonderful ability to draw in the viewer, and is one of the most elegant of all match-ups. Them being matched up against one of the tournament's most straightforward and visceral rivalries is an interesting coincidence. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise I'm sure that everyone's love for LOGH is going to carry that rivalry in a landslide here, but I still favor Sousuke vs. Gauron in a losing cause. Theirs may be a straightforward conflict, but they have too much history, too much hate, and too many direct battles between them for them to be easily denied. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Maya and Ayumi seems like a worthy rivalry to make it here, but they do not stand a chance against the well-entrenched, passionate mutual hatred involved in the Kouga vs. Iga clans rivalry. Outside of their young leaders, this is a no-holds-barred bloodfest with no quarter being asked or given, something that even their leaders' love cannot conquer. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Meh. I care not and think that the winner here is inconsequential, as they just lose to the Basilisk rivalry next round. Mugen vs. Jin doesn't have the objections against it that some raised against the Lupin III rivalry during the nominations phase, so that's enough to make the difference for me. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6536 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Having nominated Princess Tutu v Princess Kraehe it’s going to take some miraculous arguing to convince me to vote against them. Although I found the Gurren Lagann clip funny, neither it nor any argument presented so far has changed my mind. The ballerina rivalry is original, intense, beautiful and surprising. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Having finally watched the Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Overture to a New War thanks to this and previous tournaments I now understand the brilliance of the Yang v Reinhard rivalry. They are fascinating characters, their rivalry is galactic in scope, and the writing is mature. When watching the clip what little chance the other mob had went out the window the moment Gauron started laughing. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk I’ve not seen either series. The Maya v Ayumi clip was captivating. It created great drama with minimal means and was entirely original to boot. The other was just another fight scene involving people with unnatural powers. One thing, though. I have a DVD with a trailer for Basilisk that shows the “snake out of the sleeve” scene for just a moment. I have always loved the image and have used it in a slide show I made of ominous anime gazes. I seriously considered voting their way on the basis of that image, but the Glass Mask clip was altogether too compelling. Anyway, thanks for providing the context in the clip. 
Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo I was never engaged by Samurai Champloo or its characters so, naturally, I wasn’t moved by their rivalry. I find Lupin v Zenigata much more entertaining. Also, I don’t accept the argument that it is wrong to judge a rivalry on the grounds of what I may think of the show. The two are inextricably linked. If I didn’t like the show it means the rivalry didn’t work for me. Or to turn it around, a good rivalry in a poor show surely indicates that the rivalry isn’t that essential in the context of that show.
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Key the link to the clip for Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm sends to the clip for Gurren Lagann
Group C-25 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann I am not familiar with Gurren Lagann and there are no convincing arguments for them, so my vote goes to Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, who I know to be a good choice. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise The rivalry between Sousuke and Gauron is a typical rivalry between a good guy and a bad guy. There is nothing wrong about it, but of the two options, the multi-layered rivalry between Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm is by far and away the more engaging. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa may stand little chance of winning, because this series languish in obscurity. However, I think that they do deserve to move on to the next round. Their rivalry is not of the bloody type, but it doesn't mean it lacks dramatic tension. There is intense competition between Ayumi and Maya at the core of this series, which makes it more interesting. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo The clip for Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata does not convince me that they are better, so I'm voting for Mugen vs. Jin. |
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NeumanProductions
 Posts: 110 Location: Appleton, WI |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Alright, as several of you might know I am indeed a fan of Gurren Lagann...however...I have also delved into the anime that feature any form of a loli like character which Princess Tutu possesses. While I believe the Gurren rivalry is hot blooded at some parts, Simon doesn't really have a beef with Viral after Kamina dies really. He's more focused on defeating the Spiral King and protected those around him no matter who it be. Viral just kinda falls off until he rejoins with Simon after the time skip. The Princess Tutu rivalry does encompass some different things in a rivalry of love and well I have to admit the dancing concept here actually works well for the writing of the series. Plus, I do find a female-female rivalry to be more intense emotionally at times than Gurren's. So therefor, if you can't believe it I pick Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Again, while I am more of a fan of FMP, I have to side with the Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm group here. Just based on what i'm hearing from thus far here tips me in their favor. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk To much Shakespeare themes going on now of days. Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa gets my vote here because I indeed like a competative rivalry and me working on acting in real life kinda places a little bias into my choice. Oh well 
Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo A fan of both series I am, I am going to have to take the road of Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata Here is the reasoning, while Mugen and Jin have their intense moments at times throughout the series it is one that just doesn't have the history as Lupin and Zenigata. Jin and Mugen just meet up and simply don't like each others attitude in general. While Lupin and Zenigata have teamed up in some situations it kinda reminds me of the anticts of the later Vegeta vs Goku rivalry where one is a bit hard nosed while the other is care free jokingly. Might sound odd to you, probably made better sense in my mind. Or the Tom and Jerry rivalry if you want to go Americanized. Always trying to outsmart the other but it is always the mouse that gets the last laugh. |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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Group C-25
Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Kamina and Simon vs. Viral, Gurren Lagann Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe - I have not seen either of the series, so I am basing my vote on the really supportive comments I have read here, and it definitely looks like a series I would be interested in. Group C-26 Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Sousuke Sagara vs. Gauron, Full Metal Panic! franchise Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm- again, a coin toss helped by a background research and favourable comments. Group C-27 Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask vs. Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk Kouga vs. Iga clans -The amount of hatred between the two clans is enough to share between a few series really. So we have here 20 different techniques, each one different and unique, which makes the rivalry interesting to watch. And it is a rivalry between 20 (!) awesome individuals, and the ones who die are not necessarily the less able ones... It just so happens , they were unfortunate enough to meet someone whose technique was more useful under the circumstances. And they are all interesting characters too, apart from their ninja skills. The conflict kept me interested from the beginning of episode 1 until the last minutes of the last episode, and I rooted for both sides to, somehow, survive. Group C-28 Arsene Lupin III vs. Inspector Zenigata, Lupin III Franchise vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo[/quote] Mugen vs. Jin - I am sorry not to be able to vote for Lupin and Zenigata. While their rivalry is fun and entertaining to watch, I think Mugen and Jin, with their friendly rivalry going on is lot more interesting. |
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farichada
Posts: 303 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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Looks like we have the wrong clip for the LoGH rivalry. The link sends me to a Gurren Lagaan clip in its stead.
[EDIT: As of Thursday, this problem has been corrected. - Key] |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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In answer to this question: yes, absolutely. I admit, I have not seen the full RxJ anime but that was because I was bored by it. Code Geass may be many things but boring was never one of them, at least not for me. And, as I stated in my reasoning last round, I found the Lelouch/Suzaku rivalry to be one of the key things that kept me interested in the series. The Capulet/Montague rivalry may have gotten me to look into RxJ but it was not enough to keep my interest. And I'm decently likely to vote for Code Geass in the next round too. I haven't really decided. I don't know if I would vote for them to be the Group B winner though, in the end. But I still consider them more than worthy to have made it to round 4 (and possibly 5). Group C-25 Voting for: Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu I actually recently re-watched Princess Tutu and, while I enjoy this rivalry, I don't actually think it's as strong as some people make it out to be. That said, it's still a pretty good one and the competition doesn't seem strong enough to sway me away from it just yet. But there are definitely other rivalries I see as being stronger in this tournament. Group C-26 Voting for: Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes This is another case where I'm voting for the rivalry that sounds more interesting to me. Plus I've heard so many good things about this show ... maybe I should check it out some day. Group C-27 Voting for: Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa, Glass Mask Again, this rivalry sounds more interesting, though the Basilisk one was pretty close. I also like that this one feels like it brings something a bit different to the table, instead of the other which the guide itself calls a rip off of the original Montague/Capulet rivalry. Group C-28 Voting for: Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Assuming I'm not remembering wrong again, I do recall some arguments against the Lupin III rivalry in the past. That's pretty much the only reason for my vote since I don't have any strong feelings either way on this one. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Anyone who votes the other way strictly because of the line I've bolded, or because they don't like any connection to Shakespeare, is making a gross mistake. The basic premise is a rip-off of RxJ, but the rivalry in Basilisk is immensely more intense and brutal. And should merely being "a bit different" really be allowed to trump quality execution? Kouga vs. Iga is the epitome of a violent rivalry where both sides are almost equally in the right and in the wrong. This is no wishy-washy Heroes-vs.-Villains conflict, like the RxJ rivals were accused of being, and the vain efforts to stop it - and the tragic extreme to which the lovers go in the series' climax to finally put an end to the rivalry - give it depth, too. If anyone has seen both series, I would be very interested in their comparison of the two rivalries. So far everyone who has spoken up has, I believe, seen only one of them or neither. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Curiously enough, I can agree with most of this line of thought. Basilisk may not have been too original in concept and it remains predictable to a degree, but the series certainly provided a rivalry full of tragedy, ambiguity and strong emotions, including an extremely high amount of hatred and distrust between both parties. Some characters can be more willling to resort to violence than others, but once the opportunity to resume their deadly historical antagonism presented itself, most of the members of both clans were literally dying to get rid of their respective rivals. Unfortunately for the two main characters who obviously want both sides to live in peace, there is no readily available solution to their predicament. They'd have to fight against the larger political issues that remain outside of their reach and, more importantly, counter the sheer hatred present within their own ranks. Which is precisely where a lot of the early drama comes from, given that both factions tend to act quite independently from their nominal leaders. Generally speaking, there is no single individual in either ninja clan who can be entirely blamed for the initial existence of the rivalry and its persistence. There are two characters in the series who ostensibly qualify as outright evil, yes, but only of them is directly relevant to the rivalry. spoiler[Because Tenzen, unlike Tokugawa, actually plays an active role instead of remaining in the background. Still, I wouldn't even say he is uniquely responsible for the entire conflict either, though at one point the script does attempt to suggest Tenzen has been keeping the flame of hatred alive, but it's not something that's visibly elaborated or discussed in great detail. I don't take the statement too literally myself, because none of his schemes would work if the two clans didn't have such an ugly grudge to begin with. And, in any case, the ending also shows us that getting rid of him doesn't truly resolve the issue either. ] While I haven't really thought about actually comparing all of this to Glass Mask just yet, Kouga vs. Iga is certainly of the top contenders left in this tournament and there are plenty of reasons to support it. |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I haven't seen Basilisk, but after reading about Kouga vs. Iga (nightjuan's post was very helpful) I think it comes down to personal preference. Both Maya Kitejima vs. Ayumi Himekawa and Kouga vs. Iga seem to be interesting top contenders. And Maya vs. Ayumi is not just a bit different, although this also makes the whole rivalry more compelling. This story has a great deal of quality execution. There is a lot of tension, it can be argued that even more so, as both girls are likeable and it's hard to root for only one of them. It provides a different kind of tension, but, as I wrote earlier, it is a good thing, IMO. There is a lot of friends in anime who turn into enemies in the course of story: Lulu vs. Suzaku, Naruto vs. Sasuke, Arthur vs. Kira from Gundam Seed to name but a few. Maya and Ayumi only become closer to each other, it's a strange friendship born out of rivalry, but their bitter rivalry doesn't disappear. |
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