Forum - View topicThe Best Anime of 2016
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zrnzle500
Posts: 3767 |
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I don't see how you can dismiss KyoAni as unimpressive for modeling stuff you can see in real life and then turn around and say this, that more realistic animation is the more technically impressive. This is one of the biggest reasons I thought Euphonium was the best this year and one of the best last year (I declined to rank them then so I'm not sure how I would rank them now). |
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Valhern
Posts: 916 |
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@Kikaioh, again with "technical level", you're swapping between what you like for what is "objectively better" constantly, we get it, you like that type of animation, what I'm trying to explain to you is that you're trying to find an "objective" flaw where none is to be found more than your perspective of it. And it's not as if abstract animation has more "ideas" than realistic animation, realistic animation needs as much inspiration, because most of the times it's representing actually irrealistic stuff, we don't have giant mechas, we don't know how they move, they try to mimick that as much as possible. We also don't know how a motorbike might be able to race on the side of a mountain, it's stuff they have to make up.
While I don't particularly care for Miyazaki's thoughts on modern animation, the very fact that he says that older animation had another idiosincracy means that it had a lot of ideas, just different ideas, and that they've evolved in a different way. Everybody (absolutely EVERYBODY) learned from the same Kanada and Ichiro Itano, and they've been constantly transforming their legacy with different ways (https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/17944 this is the same guy who did that Escaflowne scene you linked, bythe way), and honestly, I would easily get bored if animation had only one kind of idiosincracy, or if I measured it by a "technicality degree". But, you do you I guess. I also literally don't see how Yutaka Nakamura doesn't look fluid.
You...do know how animators are paid, yes? They don't have a monthly wage (hint: the only studio that does it is Kyoto Animation because their pool of animators is restricted and small), they are strictly paid by key frame drawn. What the Sakugablog post says is that there are barely enough animators to produce the shows each season, and a lot of times it won't suffice for all shows (see how a lot of anime had to skip an episode or two in this season). And yes, there has been a flux of animators to smaller productions (like Planetarian or short format anime), it's not a wrong idea to get that, but the point is that the format of TV anime is being handled wrong by most of the industry, not that the format is dead per se. |
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Rivailloli
Posts: 562 Location: Virginia |
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Bait shows do have a tendency to do better than non-baity shows. That is an actual trend. Compare sales of subtext shows like Love Live!, K-On!, Gochiusa, Free!, KNB, and whatever else you can think of to actual GL/BL shows. GL shows are typically dead on arrival (minus Marimite and Mai-hime years ago. Yuru Yuri is the latest example, but even then there were no "official" couples and still some girls weren't actually gay) and BL anime is basically just as dead now-a-days (minus Junjou Romantic). Vaisaga isn't exactly wrong in this instance. Bait shows tend to have it easier. They can get the bishounen/bishoujo otaku and they can bait the fujoshi/yuri otaku as well. Unlike shows that are straight up BL/GL who the only otaku to care about those series are those who are into that media. GL is an especially small market to the point where it can barely manage more than one magazine focused solely on it. You can get disc sales information from here: http://www.someanithing.com/
I don't get where your argument is going with this; the only think I can really gather is that you're being rather pompous in the name of "psychology" or whatever. I find it rather hilarious, because psychology as a field places a large emphasis on the idea of considering someone else's point of view and that is something I am not seeing from you. Instead I see you looking down on people cause you "took some classes." You're not better at thinking because you majored in psychology and because some professor told you to think critically once. You're also not helping anyone by picking fights over an anime because you can't even begin to grasp why people like something. (Especially when their reasons for liking it have been plastered all over the forum). This isn't your social psychology course where people's behaviors become trends, these is individual people you are talking to who come with a variety of opinions. Maybe you should pay attention more in your classes, because at this point your professors should be instructing you on listening rather than berating people with what they should "learn" about. |
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Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
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I guess just to personally close up some final responses on animation, since these were posted right after my last message:
I think what's impressive about the older works is that the animators had to have an innate understanding of the physical laws of the world, and how they would apply to characters and objects under unrealistic circumstances. Slice of life shows have the benefit of animators being able to more easily observe normal, real-world motion and portray that in normal real-world circumstances --- it's easier to find or even reproduce reference material for capturing those sorts of sequences. To me, it's the ability to give realness to unreal situations that I find impressive about the older works, since they have to try and make uncommon sequences feel real. @Valhern: I'm not exactly talking about "objectively better", as much as I'm talking about "objectively more challenging", which to me is subjectively more impressive. Don't get me wrong, the production quality on modern animation is fantastic, and even the sequences in Mob Psycho are very well put together and realized for what they're aiming for. But when you're not bound to real world rules, motion can get simplified, because the weight and interactions of objects and characters don't have to be held to any sort of standard. The wider range of flexibility means that anything goes --- there isn't as much a need for understanding/portraying structure, weight, perspective and momentum of characters, objects and backgrounds (all of which is very difficult to capture) because you can basically make everything have the same sort of floaty physics to it. That's how it often feels to me in a lot of modern works, and I personally don't find it as impressive as a result. As for Yutaka Nakamura, his body of works is very good, though I do wonder at the in-between work in Mob Psycho, since it comes across a fair bit ways more choppy and less fluid than some of the older productions. Anyways, I feel like I've expressed my thoughts pretty fully with that, and I don't mean to keep pushing forward this sort of off-topic conversation, so I don't plan to follow up unless there's something more compelling to be said. |
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VoidWitch
Posts: 157 |
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Ok. BL/GL is a niche product so that makes sense. That doesn't change much. The division between "baity" and "non-baity" shows is really dumb. Now I totally understand people who are against the use of the word "Queerbaiting". It gets thrown around and misused a lot. I guess you could call some shows as hetbaity then. And not just anime, but live action movies as well lmao. They should watch "In the mood of love" by Wong Kar-Wai. I have never seen more hetbaity movie in my life. Gotta ""love"" the mix between ignorance, bigotry and purity culture. It's just never [expletive] enough is it? Edit: If people seriously don't see the difference between Free! and Yurikuma Arashi then I give up. It's clearly not a problem of queer representation anymore, but of a "queer panic" around intentions of the author. Edit2: Ugh. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13229 |
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Like I said, I was answering VoidWitch's questions about my personal biases and stuff. I didn't claim this made me better or anything, I was just providing the information requested.
Individual people who all live in a society that is likely influencing them in ways they don't even realise. If you don't want to think about such things, okay, just ignore my posts and move on. |
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Rivailloli
Posts: 562 Location: Virginia |
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Okay? You just brought up an argument about something I wasn't even opening up discussion for. I'm not gunna get into "bait" and "non-bait" distinction definitions. I was just giving you the data you asked for.
This isn't just about your responses, it's your entire argument proposed throughout this thread. While you may not have meant to come off that way, you did.
No duh, you're not the only who is majoring in psychology and took some classes, but that still does not change that you already have the response to your question. And this is what I mean by you're coming off as rude. "You don't think like me, so move on", all the while the "point" (I'm assuming) of your argument was to gather why people liked Yuuri!!! on Ice. Like I said earlier, I find the dismissal rather hilarious especially since you claim to study psychology so much yet you ignore one of its largest ideals. You get what you wanted, but for whatever reason it wasn't enough. Probably because the thoughts didn't reflect what you wanted. |
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Jose Cruz
Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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I guess that modern anime evolved into more and more fantastical environment/depictions so that now they just don't care at alll how "realistic" things look. Only how "cool" they are. It's perhaps analogous to the evolution in painting you have talked about before. But what I miss the most in older stuff is the more organic look of the colors since the animation cells were painted by hand and that created a more complex and organic quality for the animation cells. Today they are digital so the color is much more uniform and "boring". You can notice that clear difference that started to appear around 1999-2000 when most studios switched to fully computerized animation. Still I am not that of a big fan of "cool looking" animation sequences what I care the most is good direction, art and writing although I find those animation pyrotenics to be always a joy to watch. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13229 |
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Not quite. My question was what factors other than the quality influenced its popularity. Very few people actually addressed that question, and the only real answer I got was as to why something like YoI is regarded differently from dedicated BL titles. Instead I got people wildly misinterpreting my question as something malicious, apparently reading it as me claiming that people could only like it because of some sort of "conspiracy" or something. It sounded like they were completely denying that outside influences can affect opinions and that it's only popular because of the show's own merits. So since then I've been attempting to correct people on their misinterpretation and explain why completely dismissing those outside factors is ridiculous. That acknowledging those outside factors in no ways spoils their liking of the show. But since it's no longer my arguments but my person that is being attacked now there's little else to say. |
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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And do you realize that studio aren't made up of just animator? They have, you know, employee that require regular pay (I will admit I don't know if it's weekly, bi monthly or monthly pay)... Animator are a pretty flexible resource, you can grab more by simply paying them more (i.e. poaching them from other studios) or you can hire oversea. The larger studio could easily form there own in house if the need become dire enough. So once again, more money = better results. |
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gabuhaha
Posts: 136 |
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Because you didn't just ask about outside factors. You framed it in a way that was a direct attack on the quality of the show then ignored any posts about the quality of the show. You are also the one that directed it down the path of only being a response on it being "a gay show". This from your initial post:
And then this from your second:
I could probably find more but each time you are attacking that it's a good show which is going to make people defensive about it being a good show. To answer your initial question now that I know what you are actually interested in hearing about, the factors that I think influenced it's rank (not outside of the quality of the show because if these were done poorly then they wouldn't matter nearly as much): 1. Gay representation. Already been covered so I won't say anything more. 2. Figure skating representation. It's not a sport that has had an anime before and it's also a sport that tends to be watched by more women and gay men which directly ties into #1. 3. It's a happy show. People are much more likely to rate shows that make them feel good much higher. Showa Genroku was a really good show but it was also a tragedy. I enjoyed it but it's not something that I'm going back to rewatch other than the rakugo parts. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18199 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yeah, I think it would be best if you opened a thread in the Anime forum about it, as this whole discussion on animation quality is, at best, only very peripherally related to the thread topic at this point. Call it the "Official Sakuga Discussion Thread" if you like. And let's redirect all future animation quality-related posts that don't specifically concern 2016 titles and their ratings to such a thread. |
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Galap
Moderator
Posts: 2354 |
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The posters in this thread need to come back down a notch.
And this weird multi-way argument has gone so far outside the topic (I think it might have initially been about yuri?) that I can't even tell what's even being discussed. Let's have that be over. |
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Valhern
Posts: 916 |
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You clearly have a problem understanding how the animation process goes. Let's take Yuri on Ice for example again. You have 86 animators (credited, I wouldn't not consider having a real number closer to one hundred). For those 86 animators, you have 16 Animation Directors. All of the Animation Directors have to correct and check every single cut they're assigned to, and they are also have to be okayed by the Chief Animation Director...if they have time to. There's a point in which checking and correcting becomes a humanly impossible task, and it's when the artistry of the anime itself begins to crumble: the show starts to not look like itself anymore. It's not like Mob Psycho 100, in which they deliberately integrate different artstyles while trying to make it cohesively similar to the rest of the show. Sure, if you're running out of time, you can contact more animators overseas and in other studios, but who's going to check those cuts? Do you elevate someone from key animator to animation director? It happened in an episode of JoJo 4, in which a relatively good Korean key animator was given the role of Animation Director, most likely because he had to correct his Korean peers work, and it looked disastrous. You can also ask people in other studios to put one of their own animation directors to do the job. And we haven't even talked about in-betweeners and in-between checkers. And, oh my God, animators are NOT a flexible resource, they're underpaid, overworked artists. You can't just go "Oh, I will just ask more people to draw stuff, who cares", it's completely irresponsible. The key here is time and scheduling, it always is. The same idea of "Just having more animators" is what killed God Eater's production; they couldn't finish three episodes, they had to air them a season later, how pouring money into it helped in any way? I'm just kind of tired of the discussion now, anyway. EDIT: My bad, didn't see the mod posts while writing, sorry. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13229 |
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I admit I did focus more on the impact it would have on the homosexual community because that's a much more serious social issue. Sure figure skaters love it but they haven't been persecuted for hundreds of years, you know?
Sorry, I fail to see how either of those examples are "attacking" the show. I never denied it was a good show, and I made it quite clear that I was asking "other than it being good, why is it popular?" My "that would be boring" comment was referring to merely accepting "It's popular because it's good" at face value. |
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