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thepepin
Joined: 22 Jun 2022
Posts: 69
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:39 pm
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Gem-Bug wrote: |
thepepin wrote: |
Hope the people who keep pushing this take actually justify it with a comparison between the number of dead or maimed male characters versus the female ones. My guess: as usual the male carnage is much greater but what happens to them "doesn't count" for some reason. All Might lost a lung and his digestive system? Kurogiri being Oboro Shirakumo's zombie? The whole thing with Endeavor's son? Lemillion losing his powers? Rock Lock getting nearly killed by Toga? Ingenium being made paraplegic by Stain (who Sir Nighteye being the first - and to this point the only - major onscreen hero death? Or Snatch, the only other onscreen hero death? And for 5 more guys (all as significant to the MHA plot as Star and Stripe which is where this nonsense got started) what happens with Best Jeanist, Edgeshot, Native, Crust and Bakugo in the manga?
Forget not being consistent. Social media outrage doesn't even bother being factually correct these days. |
All of the bolded bits tell me that it's not really worry "debating" this with you, sorry. |
Of course it was. It was the bold. Had nothing to do with what you claimed - like basically every other social media outrage - was 100% in opposition to the facts. But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. Like it already has to Sir Nighteye (dead), Snatch (dead) and Ingenium (paraplegic for the rest of his life). Or when a dead female hero gets turned into a zombie like Oboro. Maybe then you will be able to mount a convincing claim about fonts.
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Hiroki not Takuya
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2518
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:22 pm
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thepepin wrote: | ...Forget not being consistent. Social media outrage doesn't even bother being factually correct these days. |
It never has been in my view, just the cheapest way to try to gather supporters and seem legitimate. After all, a generation has been taught that outrage only happens when the raging party is being attacked by "the opposition" making said rage always legitimate...
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jr240483
Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 4379
Location: New York City,New York,USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:49 am
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thepepin wrote: |
Gem-Bug wrote: |
thepepin wrote: |
Hope the people who keep pushing this take actually justify it with a comparison between the number of dead or maimed male characters versus the female ones. My guess: as usual the male carnage is much greater but what happens to them "doesn't count" for some reason. All Might lost a lung and his digestive system? Kurogiri being Oboro Shirakumo's zombie? The whole thing with Endeavor's son? Lemillion losing his powers? Rock Lock getting nearly killed by Toga? Ingenium being made paraplegic by Stain (who Sir Nighteye being the first - and to this point the only - major onscreen hero death? Or Snatch, the only other onscreen hero death? And for 5 more guys (all as significant to the MHA plot as Star and Stripe which is where this nonsense got started) what happens with Best Jeanist, Edgeshot, Native, Crust and Bakugo in the manga?
Forget not being consistent. Social media outrage doesn't even bother being factually correct these days. |
All of the bolded bits tell me that it's not really worry "debating" this with you, sorry. |
Of course it was. It was the bold. Had nothing to do with what you claimed - like basically every other social media outrage - was 100% in opposition to the facts. But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. Like it already has to Sir Nighteye (dead), Snatch (dead) and Ingenium (paraplegic for the rest of his life). Or when a dead female hero gets turned into a zombie like Oboro. Maybe then you will be able to mount a convincing claim about fonts. |
considering that later in the manga that midnight will end up dying at the end of this arc as well as that former assassin for the safety commission who was hawks predecessor being crippled due to the quirk all for one gave her was booby trapped, and of course cassie aka star and stripes, its more or less a given that the author treats the brutalities and deaths for all characters equally and not just women only. especially after nighteye!
i just hope that he dont try to go for a "kill em all" scenario ala like some of those tomino gundam series
otherwise there is gonna be some serious AND genuine backlash for that decision. and is not gonna be a silly fake bru ha ha that some people try to pull with the semi nude cover photo for invisible girl that will fade overnight
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John Thacker
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 1006
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:23 pm
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Quote: | So how can the narrative reconcile stopping people from doing the wrong thing for the right – or at least sympathetic – reasons? |
Sure? A narrative that already accepts the idea that people can be terrible people privately or motivated by the wrong reasons like fame, or just flawed (Endeavor, Minoru Mineta, Bakugo, etc.) and yet have prosocial actions is perfectly at home saying that people can have sympathetic or good reasons and do terrible things for society that must be stopped.
The only problem with it isn't the narrative, it's the fans who can't accept the flawed characters who are on the side of society, or who fall in love with characters who do evil but are cool or sympathetic. But the narrative isn't responsible for "bad fans," because reality is indeed filled with people who do evil with good intentions and who do good for the wrong reasons.
The narrative understands that. Some fans and reviewers, don't. The narrative is far, far more nuanced than it is given credit for, but you can't control a certain segment of people taking a different lesson away from art, not if you depict something with nuance and grey.
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zunderdog24
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 362
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:57 pm
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thepepin wrote: | But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. |
Rabbit girl.
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v1cious
Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 6203
Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 6:58 am
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thepepin wrote: | But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. |
...
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John Thacker
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 1006
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:44 am
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zunderdog24 wrote: |
thepepin wrote: | But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. |
Rabbit girl. |
Nope, as already spoiled in this thread, permanently doesn't apply here.
Even if it did, the original claim by Gem-Bug that female characters are particularly the victims of violence remains utterly ridiculous for whatever reason it was made.
As mentioned, a more reasonable complaint is that the most important and interesting characters are all male, and female characters are generally supporting characters, though sadly not unusual in male target audience shows.
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thepepin
Joined: 22 Jun 2022
Posts: 69
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:17 pm
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John Thacker wrote: |
zunderdog24 wrote: |
thepepin wrote: | But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. |
Rabbit girl. |
Nope, as already spoiled in this thread, permanently doesn't apply here.
Even if it did, the original claim by Gem-Bug that female characters are particularly the victims of violence remains utterly ridiculous for whatever reason it was made.
As mentioned, a more reasonable complaint is that the most important and interesting characters are all male, and female characters are generally supporting characters, though sadly not unusual in male target audience shows. |
Some context: MHA for some reason appears to be the only contemporary anime that is currrently popular among the "doesn't usually watch anime" crowd in the west (let's be honest: America). Some elements in that crowd have gotten used to modern western entertainment like the recent Star Wars trilogy, the recent Mad Max and Ghostbusters movies, the recent Marvel shows on Disney+ and a bunch of similar streaming shows etc. - I guess the Predator remake on Hulu was the most recent along with Rings of Power - where the female protags are essentially the main characters even when they aren't top billed, never lose fights and aren't used for eye candy. Bizarre first because even in the west this trend is less than ten years old and second because there is no reason to expect Japanese entertainment to follow western standards.
The first blowup was a few years back over Nejire and Momo showing cleavage. That inspired a "fixing anime girls" trend on social media. Yes, there was some outrage from this crowd over Stars and Stripes dying but after it was debunked had long since passed. But it cropped up again from this bunch in response to the recent fanservicey "naked Invisible Girl" cover. What this crowd is really upset at is the fanservice. But you can't come out and SAY that because the vast majority of actual anime fans - especially in MHA's actual target demo - likes fanservice, is indifferent to it or certainly doesn't view it as misogynistic. So, they have to come up with other stuff so they can associate the fanservice with it. With Momo (the first controversy) it was allegedly because of her "impractical outfit" before people brought up that - unlike Storm, Emma Frost, Power Girl, Scarlet Witch and practically every other female character in western comics including several members of the Teen Titans and Young Avengers - her outfit was actually justified by her powers (as opposed to Wonder Woman, a melee fighter in a one piece swimsuit and high heels). With Nejire they shifted to the "she's underaged so it is child porn" thing ... until they were reminded that MHA's actual target demo is middle and junior high school boys that are actually younger than Nejire is.
So that is why the "MHA brutalizes its female characters" thing was dredged up again after initially being raised - and debunked - when Stars and Stripes died. Folks upset over the naked Invisible Girl cover started posting screenshots of it on social media along with "remember how MHA loves to depict violence against women too!" The funny part is that in universe the superhero authorities forced superheroes to (whenever possible) cover up in order to thwart exhibitionists (like Midnight) and those who would show skin to manipulate the popularity ratings (like Mt. Lady). Plus MHA is incredibly tame when compared to Fairy Tale and even a gag show like Love After World Domination, but the internet outrage machine doesn't watch those and doesn't know it.
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Kirki
Joined: 11 Jun 2019
Posts: 296
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:34 pm
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There is a saying in my country that's basically along the lines of: "It's better to get a bad eye than a bad name." Horikoshi's fame of not treating his female characters equally to his male ones has already been cemented from missteps in the beginning of the series, so there really isn't much he can do now to save face. That's not to say that he didn't try to fix it as much as he could. For me he succeeded with Miruko, but with Cassie he fell back in his own bad habits. MHA is a battle shounen manga, all active characters are going to get beat up on a regular basis and sometimes die. Miruko is a delight of a character and the more I see of her the happier I am.
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NeverConvex
Subscriber
Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2311
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 6:19 pm
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Out've curiosity, in the anime to date, what examples are there of MHA displaying violence against women so far? Eri being a child hostage and the recent Mirko scene come to mind of course. And there was an incident where All For One took the quirk from one of the heroines, I think? Maybe? MHA's been a lot less engaging the last few seasons than it was in the first few, having trouble thinking through what the examples of this may be.
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Gem-Bug
Joined: 10 Nov 2018
Posts: 1213
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:17 pm
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thepepin wrote: |
Some context: MHA for some reason appears to be the only contemporary anime that is currrently popular among the "doesn't usually watch anime" crowd in the west (let's be honest: America). Some elements in that crowd have gotten used to modern western entertainment like the recent Star Wars trilogy, the recent Mad Max and Ghostbusters movies, the recent Marvel shows on Disney+ and a bunch of similar streaming shows etc. - I guess the Predator remake on Hulu was the most recent along with Rings of Power - where the female protags are essentially the main characters even when they aren't top billed, never lose fights and aren't used for eye candy. Bizarre first because even in the west this trend is less than ten years old and second because there is no reason to expect Japanese entertainment to follow western standards.
The first blowup was a few years back over Nejire and Momo showing cleavage. That inspired a "fixing anime girls" trend on social media. Yes, there was some outrage from this crowd over Stars and Stripes dying but after it was debunked had long since passed. But it cropped up again from this bunch in response to the recent fanservicey "naked Invisible Girl" cover. What this crowd is really upset at is the fanservice. But you can't come out and SAY that because the vast majority of actual anime fans - especially in MHA's actual target demo - likes fanservice, is indifferent to it or certainly doesn't view it as misogynistic. So, they have to come up with other stuff so they can associate the fanservice with it. With Momo (the first controversy) it was allegedly because of her "impractical outfit" before people brought up that - unlike Storm, Emma Frost, Power Girl, Scarlet Witch and practically every other female character in western comics including several members of the Teen Titans and Young Avengers - her outfit was actually justified by her powers (as opposed to Wonder Woman, a melee fighter in a one piece swimsuit and high heels). With Nejire they shifted to the "she's underaged so it is child porn" thing ... until they were reminded that MHA's actual target demo is middle and junior high school boys that are actually younger than Nejire is.
So that is why the "MHA brutalizes its female characters" thing was dredged up again after initially being raised - and debunked - when Stars and Stripes died. Folks upset over the naked Invisible Girl cover started posting screenshots of it on social media along with "remember how MHA loves to depict violence against women too!" The funny part is that in universe the superhero authorities forced superheroes to (whenever possible) cover up in order to thwart exhibitionists (like Midnight) and those who would show skin to manipulate the popularity ratings (like Mt. Lady). Plus MHA is incredibly tame when compared to Fairy Tale and even a gag show like Love After World Domination, but the internet outrage machine doesn't watch those and doesn't know it. |
I don't know where you're getting all this anti-fanservice stuff from or why you're trying to conflate it with my original statement, but for someone tossing around the word "outrage" so generously, you sure like writing essays about how upset you are.
And as for my original statement, I am not putting spoilers of events that haven't happened in the anime yet in this thread. Go research things yourselves if you need to.
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Minos_Kurumada
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 1017
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:54 pm
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thepepin wrote: |
John Thacker wrote: |
zunderdog24 wrote: |
thepepin wrote: | But hey: let me know when a female hero either dies or becomes permanently crippled onscreen during MHA. |
Rabbit girl. |
Nope, as already spoiled in this thread, permanently doesn't apply here.
Even if it did, the original claim by Gem-Bug that female characters are particularly the victims of violence remains utterly ridiculous for whatever reason it was made.
As mentioned, a more reasonable complaint is that the most important and interesting characters are all male, and female characters are generally supporting characters, though sadly not unusual in male target audience shows. |
Some context: MHA for some reason appears to be the only contemporary anime that is currrently popular among the "doesn't usually watch anime" crowd in the west (let's be honest: America). Some elements in that crowd have gotten used to modern western entertainment like the recent Star Wars trilogy, the recent Mad Max and Ghostbusters movies, the recent Marvel shows on Disney+ and a bunch of similar streaming shows etc. - I guess the Predator remake on Hulu was the most recent along with Rings of Power - where the female protags are essentially the main characters even when they aren't top billed, never lose fights and aren't used for eye candy. Bizarre first because even in the west this trend is less than ten years old and second because there is no reason to expect Japanese entertainment to follow western standards.
The first blowup was a few years back over Nejire and Momo showing cleavage. That inspired a "fixing anime girls" trend on social media. Yes, there was some outrage from this crowd over Stars and Stripes dying but after it was debunked had long since passed. But it cropped up again from this bunch in response to the recent fanservicey "naked Invisible Girl" cover. What this crowd is really upset at is the fanservice. But you can't come out and SAY that because the vast majority of actual anime fans - especially in MHA's actual target demo - likes fanservice, is indifferent to it or certainly doesn't view it as misogynistic. So, they have to come up with other stuff so they can associate the fanservice with it. With Momo (the first controversy) it was allegedly because of her "impractical outfit" before people brought up that - unlike Storm, Emma Frost, Power Girl, Scarlet Witch and practically every other female character in western comics including several members of the Teen Titans and Young Avengers - her outfit was actually justified by her powers (as opposed to Wonder Woman, a melee fighter in a one piece swimsuit and high heels). With Nejire they shifted to the "she's underaged so it is child porn" thing ... until they were reminded that MHA's actual target demo is middle and junior high school boys that are actually younger than Nejire is.
So that is why the "MHA brutalizes its female characters" thing was dredged up again after initially being raised - and debunked - when Stars and Stripes died. Folks upset over the naked Invisible Girl cover started posting screenshots of it on social media along with "remember how MHA loves to depict violence against women too!" The funny part is that in universe the superhero authorities forced superheroes to (whenever possible) cover up in order to thwart exhibitionists (like Midnight) and those who would show skin to manipulate the popularity ratings (like Mt. Lady). Plus MHA is incredibly tame when compared to Fairy Tale and even a gag show like Love After World Domination, but the internet outrage machine doesn't watch those and doesn't know it. |
The Nejire thing was because in the manga Nejire do has a descent blossom, but in the Anime it was so big she actually locked terrible, so people was pulling manga pages to compare to anime screenshots and asking Bones what the heck they were thinking.
One of the rare instances of this complain being 100% valid, she looked terrible and unbalanced.
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Gina Szanboti
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11372
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:57 am
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I never thought about Twice's real name until this episode and reading the review. I guess I noticed now because Bubaigawara Jin is such a mouthful. Got me curious to look it up, since I know the names in this series are usually significant. So turns out Bubaigawara is the name of a Tokyo train station jointly run by two separate railway companies. Is that perfect or what? Rip, Jin.
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FilthyCasual
Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 2201
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Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:50 pm
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I like the part where Shiggy ragdolls onto the ground, that was fluid.
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TheSleepyMonkey
Joined: 11 Jul 2022
Posts: 898
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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:54 pm
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I really don't get where the reviewer is coming from with this "scuffed pacing" talk. The pacing in this season has been the best in a long while, and the addition of multiple anime-original scenes just helps that.
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