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Last edited by agila61 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

Melicans wrote:

It's worth noting that it isn't just non-North American markets that don't have access to the streaming; it's basically non-US period. I live in Canada and Crunchyroll is pretty much the only place I am able to watch anime legitimately. If I want to watch something hosted on ANN, Hulu, Funimation, or The Anime Network, I'm constantly stymied because they are available to US residents only, even if the streaming rights are for all of North America. It's a pain in the ass that should really be sorted out; not just for the rest of North America, but for other regions in the world too.

I thought that Funimation.com had changed that recently ~ keeping their onsite hosting live for Canadian viewers, and only feeding the US viewers over to Hulu when the Hulu stream went live.

Their current Funimation.com FAQ answer on this is

Quote:

If you are outside of the U.S.A. or Canada, that message means that you will not be able to watch the video. Unfortunately, we do not have streaming rights for your country.

If you live in the U.S.A. or Canada, please email [email protected]. This could be related to a bug, and we will need to add your IP or IP range to our database.

Crackle says that some of their content is accessible to Canada, the UK, and Australia, but I don't know if that applies to any of the anime they have ~ I don't recall any of their delaycasts that weren't also on Crunchyroll, so I've only ever watched catalog titles on that site.

Petrea Mitchell wrote:

Mesonoxian Eve wrote:

I concur it makes no sense to block access to an ad based site.

Sure it does. Advertisers are paying to get their ads run to a certain number of viewers, and they want those viewers to be people who can actually buy their product. ...

Quite: if there is no revenue for streaming a show to a particular country, because there are not enough advertisers that wish to advertise to that country, then the ad-stream doesn't cover the bandwidth cost.

Its a subscription site where it makes less sense, but there's a Catch-22 where you need subscribers from the country to make it worthwhile to pick up the license to that country ~ and how do you attract those subscribers before you have any content accessible to them? Crunchyroll had the cornerstone of Worldwide ex-Japan access to Naruto, but its hard to build a critical mass based on Naruto, the last four episodes of Fairy Tale, and maybe something like Rio or a couple of 3minute shorts. Its taken the 6.1 "Worldwide ex-Japan" series that seem to be due to TV Tokyo to get ASEAN, most of Continental Europe, and Africa and the Middle East above the level of dribs and drabs.

And for the most part, that is premium members only, since those aren't exactly the most lucrative advertising markets for streaming ads.

Petrea Mitchell wrote:

I object to "otaku pandering", because what I find it generally means is pandering aimed at a stereotypical group of men with immense disposable income...

Also, I don't think this sort of thing can sustain itself indefinitely. The number of hikikimori and NEETs in Japan is large, but it is most certainly finite. The otaku bubble is bound to burst sooner or later.

Shenl742 wrote:

Personally, I have to question how healthy someone is sexually if they see "fanservice" in everything....

Not all fan service is sexual. Extreme gore and violence, random cute animals, or really detailed electronics that are just thrown in to please fans could all be considered fan service.

SereneChaos wrote:

Shenl742 wrote:

Personally, I have to question how healthy someone is sexually if they see "fanservice" in everything....

Not all fan service is sexual. Extreme gore and violence, random cute animals, or really detailed electronics that are just thrown in to please fans could all be considered fan service.

Definately, but more often then not, sexuality and titilating elements are usually what's being referred to (and what I specifically was referring to)

Last edited by configspace on Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

dragon695 wrote:

TitanXL wrote:

I'm not sure if I'd call people 'fake fans' if they don't like fanservice, but it does make me question what anime they like, since just about every anime will have it to some degree since Japan is more open to that stuff.. even Pocket Monsters, Hamtaro, and Beyblade is full of it. I can't imagine it being easy hating fanservice and being an anime fan.

What the heck are you talking about? It's not a zero sum game, you can find fanservice annoying but find everything else in the show fun enough to give it a pass. I think this is certainly the case for shows like Fairy Tail or Queen's Blade or some NisiO titles. A lot depends on just how much the fanservice drives the show: is it just like Upotte!! or DxD?

I think it more or less depends on what kind of fanservice turns you on or off, since the reactions are obviously going to be different with different people. People automatically assume "fanservice" means male otaku-bait. But really anything is fanservice. For example, you've mentioned before your BL/yaoi preferences. That's also fanservice. Mecha-porn can be fanservice, etc. It is as the name implies a special service to the fans.

Petrea Mitchell wrote:

I object to "otaku pandering", because what I find it generally means is pandering aimed at a stereotypical group of men with immense disposable income, no social life, deep knowledge of 2chan in-jokes, and an emotional age of about 13. This is a population that excludes me on several points. My problem with "otaku pandering" is that it's not pandering to me.

I was originally going to add that if a show wants to pander to me, it should have a strong story and likeable characters... but on reflection, that's not pandering.

No. That is pandering, IF we are to be consistent with the connotation people assign to it. Just because the subject matter is different doesn't change the pandering term, again, IF we want to be consistent with how people tend throw the word around. You can have completely non-sexual, intellectual, or aesthetic pandering, or pandering of whatever other qualities.

Quote:

Just about anyone will respond to that. Pandering is what you want to see so much that you're willing to ignore serious basic deficiencies in a show.

Case in point for me: Space Brothers. It's not bad, but it's off to a slow start and the start of the story is a little contrived. And I do not care. Because I am a sucker for space-related sentimentality. When the opening sequence plays, and those kids' dream rockets go flying off to join the real ones, I get all misty-eyed and the part of my brain which critically evaluates plots and so forth shuts right off.

However, in the original meaning, you cannot determine pandering by simply your perception. It has to be determined by intention. People have totally abused, twisted and completely changed the word pandering to simply mean appealing to things they themselves don't like.

A politician can be said to pander for votes if and only if his intentions are not genuine. That is, if he is doing something just to get votes that he himself does not ordinarily care for.

A politician CANNOT pander if he is doing that exact same thing that he feels genuine about, regardless of the outcome.

So in fact, in reality, most salespersons and marketers' jobs actually involves pandering! But if that person is a true evangelist for the product, then despite doing the same activity dealing with the same topic, he cannot by (original) definition be a panderer!

Take for example the very ironic case, that writer for AnoHana actually herself, on her own, originally incorporated ero-comedy elements. She was overridden by the producer and director and told to rewrite parts, to her slight dissatisfaction. If we had what she originally desired for herself people would have been throwing the term "pandering" around. But it is ironic because in reality the final product is a result of some pandering to the mainstream, to the "more serious"

Personally,I don't have a problem with other animators imitating the style of anime. In fact,I think it's a good idea. The Japanese have made a lot of good stuff over the years and I can't see why anyone would object to something like that. I've enjoyed shows like "Totally Spies" and "Avatar:The Last Airbender."
To be honest,I hope there's more of it coming out. I once did a post on how the Japanese themselves felt about Americans imitating their style of animation. I still haven't answered that question though. I hope one day,I will.

Melicans wrote:

I live in Canada and Crunchyroll is pretty much the only place I am able to watch anime legitimately. If I want to watch something hosted on ANN, Hulu, Funimation, or The Anime Network, I'm constantly stymied because they are available to US residents only, even if the streaming rights are for all of North America.

I can access Funimation ,The Anime Network's and ANN's streams perfectly fine.

I only have to trouble with Viz because they stream directly through Hulu (which erks me. Especially this season and last as they picked up multiple titles I wanted to own, only to say that the numbers were low that they might not consider a release at all)

I'm in Canada as well.

As for the shows-imitating-anime thing, I loved Martin Mystery, Totally Spies and Avatar (The first two being by Marathon Entertainment which tend to imitate the anime style a lot actually)

Zac wrote:

walw6pK4Alo wrote:

They all have their place and shouldn't be demeaned or belittled.

Nope. Making fun of stuff is and generally always should be OK.

Otherwise you're taking yourself too seriously.

Conversely, enthusing about a show should also always be OK. With the additional caveat that neither one of these things should be demeaned (in-and-of-themselves at least.)

configspace wrote:

dragon695 wrote:

TitanXL wrote:

I'm not sure if I'd call people 'fake fans' if they don't like fanservice, but it does make me question what anime they like, since just about every anime will have it to some degree since Japan is more open to that stuff.. even Pocket Monsters, Hamtaro, and Beyblade is full of it. I can't imagine it being easy hating fanservice and being an anime fan.

What the heck are you talking about? It's not a zero sum game, you can find fanservice annoying but find everything else in the show fun enough to give it a pass. I think this is certainly the case for shows like Fairy Tail or Queen's Blade or some NisiO titles. A lot depends on just how much the fanservice drives the show: is it just like Upotte!! or DxD?

I think it more or less depends on what kind of fanservice turns you on or off, since the reactions are obviously going to be different with different people. People automatically assume "fanservice" means male otaku-bait. But really anything is fanservice. For example, you've mentioned before your BL/yaoi preferences. That's also fanservice. Mecha-porn can be fanservice, etc. It is as the name implies a special service to the fans.

First, we all know what fanservice means, let's not be coy about it. It is usually referring to anything of the prurient type regardless of gender. Second, I see you enjoy playing inspector Clouseau but sadly you haven't a clue. I like all kinds of porn: straight, bisexual, and gay. I also like all kinds of hentai: straight, bisexual, and gay. Wow, big [expletive] deal, what's that got to do with not liking fanservice? It may be a mystery, but I've prefer my porn in porn, where it doesn't tease me, you know? Sorry, but softcore shit doesn't do it for me, besides be a dick tease. But enough of that.

When it comes to anime, I can't stand a show that ONLY uses prurient material to carry it. Case in point, since you feel the need to single my "preferences" out: I hate Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi and really hate Junjou Romantica. Those things are not only chock-full of pandering, but they are terribly written pieces of shit with some of the worst tropes (especially Junjou) that actually insult me as viewer. I could not get past the fanservice driving those shows to actually want to watch them. At the same time, I thought OreImo was just as dreadful, chock full of hyuck hyuck little sis is an otaku like me, give me a hug pillow type shit. However, you have shows like No. 6 which are perfectly nice and had just a kiss or two, where you could say the characters just happen to be attracted to each other but it doesn't drive the plot in the slightest. You even have shows like Madoka where the character designs were clearly for hug pillows, but the show itself was so damn good that fanservice, if even present (I did notice any), was an after thought.

dragon695 wrote:

It may be a mystery, but I've prefer my porn in porn, where it doesn't tease me, you know? Sorry, but softcore shit doesn't do it for me, besides be a dick tease. But enough of that.

Really? Because that's only the 1 billionth time you've iterated that point, you tedious, soap-boxing bore. Are you sure you don't want to go for another billion times? Rolling Eyes

RyanSaotome wrote:

Petrea Mitchell wrote:

I object to "otaku pandering", because what I find it generally means is pandering aimed at a stereotypical group of men with immense disposable income, no social life, deep knowledge of 2chan in-jokes, and an emotional age of about 13. This is a population that excludes me on several points. My problem with "otaku pandering" is that it's not pandering to me.

I was originally going to add that if a show wants to pander to me, it should have a strong story and likeable characters... but on reflection, that's not pandering. Just about anyone will respond to that. Pandering is what you want to see so much that you're willing to ignore serious basic deficiencies in a show.

"Otaku Pandering" typically means that its being aimed at the Type B fans... which are fans who watch anime for the characters, not the story. You sound like Type A, which watches anime for stories.

As people probably know, I'm Type B. I don't really care about the story so much as if the show has characters I like. For example, my favorite show of the season (not counting Fate/Zero 2 since its just a continuation) is Haiyore! Nyarko-san. Nyarko is one of the better characters to come around for a while, she's hilarious and really cute. And the references everywhere are great.

Its not that I am "Willing to ignore serious deficiencies in a show" as much as thats not the reason I watch. If a show has a great story but I couldn't care less about the characters, then I won't enjoy watching it. Monster is a good example of this.

I feel like the "Type A/Type B" mentality is something that's been instigated and perpetuated by the very people who complain about otaku pandering, as a way to both separate otaku from the rest of anime fandom and value-judge them based on what they like to see in anime.

I also think that "pandering" is mostly a made-up buzzword (In the anime community, at least) that's come to mean "this appeals to an audience that isn't me, and that's bad." Not surprisingly, it's come to be used chiefly (As far as I've seen) by bitter people who tend to hate moé, sexual fanservice, harem, etc. and use that term, and its connotations within the anime community, to stigmatize those kinds of anime and the fans of those kinds of anime.

Timeenforceranubis wrote:

I also think that "pandering" is mostly a made-up buzzword (In the anime community, at least) that's come to mean "this appeals to an audience that isn't me, and that's bad." ...

Its not really made-up, since commercial entertainment has been pandering since before they invented moving pictures.

But, yeah, people usually only call it pandering when (1) its pandering to someone else or (2) its trying to pander to them, and failing at it.

Zac wrote:

Nope. Making fun of stuff is and generally always should be OK.

There is a difference between "poking fun at a show" and "insulting anyone who has the temerity to like it"

Upotte!! is a very easy show to make fun of, in fact, I've done more than just a bit of that myself, but I'm not going to make sweeping judgements of people because they like it.

Quote:

"Otaku Pandering" typically means that its being aimed at the Type B fans... which are fans who watch anime for the characters, not the story. You sound like Type A, which watches anime for stories.

As people probably know, I'm Type B. I don't really care about the story so much as if the show has characters I like. For example, my favorite show of the season (not counting Fate/Zero 2 since its just a continuation) is Haiyore! Nyarko-san. Nyarko is one of the better characters to come around for a while, she's hilarious and really cute. And the references everywhere are great.

Its not that I am "Willing to ignore serious deficiencies in a show" as much as thats not the reason I watch. If a show has a great story but I couldn't care less about the characters, then I won't enjoy watching it. Monster is a good example of this.

Your statement would have merit if many of these Type B anime actually had characters. But they don't. They have archetypes/cliches for characters. Now, archetypes aren't bad. But they're supposed to be a base with which you can twist, subvert, and mold to create a truly unique character.

Most of these Type B moe anime stop at the base. Their characters are tired cliches which have nothing to differentiate them. There's a reason the meme "generic moeblob #183648292847" exists. No one ever takes the time to actually make a interesting character. Those rare few who do languish in obscurity.

Chagen46 wrote:

Your statement would have merit is many of these Type B anime actuly had characters. But they don't. They have archetypes/cliches for characters. Now, archetypes aren't bad. But they're supposed to be a base with which you can twist, subvert, and mold to create a trily unique character.

Most of these Type B moe anime stop at the base. Their characters are tired cliches which have nothing to differentiate them. There's a reason the meme "generic moeblob #183648292847" exists. No one ever takes the time to actually make a interesting character. Those rare few who do languish in obscurity.

Sure, there are shows with terrible characters (Infinite Stratos anyone?) but there are also plenty of shows that get lambasted by "Type-A" (oooh I hate these terms already) fans do have good characters, but they're not going to bother watching past an episode or two.

And yes, sometimes the characters are just a collection of cliches and archetypes assembled for fanservice. And there is absolutley nothing wrong with that because you don't have to watch those shows.

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