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How do you desensitize yourself to rape in modern anime?


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:48 pm Reply with quote
^
Nah, guys who deliberately fondle breasts are usually just old perverted men who then get humourously smacked by the victim. Most recent example is the just-finished Bakumatsu Gijinden Roman which had an old off-his-rocker inventor who fondled a busty girl's breasts several times in episode eleven, each occasion earning him a stab wound in the head.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:06 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

Oh, I'm quite aware of how much of that goes on, as it's something that I comment about regularly in reviews. I'm also quite well aware that a heavy amount of what could be called sexual harassment or sexual assault is actually girl-on-girl behavior; guys are much more commonly portrayed as doing it accidentally. Sugou's behavior towards Asuna is much more the exception than the rule, and he's clearly portrayed as being a complete bastard anyway.

In fact, the more that I think about it, guys who are the perpetrators of such cases are almost invariably portrayed as psychotic villains. The notable exception here is Sasha from Qwaser of Stigmata, and in his case he has non-sexual reasons for doing it.


I will agree with you that when the guys do it it is usually portrayed as accidental (aside from Villains of course), and when the girls do it it is usually portrayed as intentional. I am sure that is done to make it seem more acceptable to the public, since there is some more visceral negative impact in people's minds having a male assaulting a female than a female assaulting another female.

P.S. Yea, to dtm's point, there is the dirty old man to be taken into account as well, which is basically a class of person all unto itself. Interestingly, there are many instances I can think of where a female fondles another female, and does it by inhabiting her "dirty old man" persona.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:01 pm Reply with quote
classicalzawa wrote:
So I can't desensitize "rape as romance" because that trope is bs, but I do somehow allow it when it's not positive.


Yeah, this is definitely the worst in my opinion. When a show feels the need to show a graphic rape/sexual assault I always find it uncomfortable and, depending on the context, often thoroughly tasteless as well. But at least in those cases it is portrayed at an unequivocally horrible thing. What is actually more disturbing is these "rape as romance" cases where it is actually portrayed as being somehow okay.

Key wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
When I started reading this thread, the very first modern anime that came to mind is BTOOOM! Although the scene in question doesn't result in actual penetration, the girl is definitely sexually assaulted and it comes very close to some kind of penetration.

Yes, this is a clear attempted rape scene - no question about it. It's also definitely not played off casually or like nothing happened; the experience negatively affects Himiko for much of the rest of the series, so it does not support the OP's claims. (The spoiler[actual rapes of her friends that happen in the flashback] also have very decided impacts long after they're shown.)


I was actually going to say exactly this. Although now I feel I ought add that, while there is definitely some purpose here, I think it is tough to deny that BTOOOM is also guilty of being way more graphic
than it needs to be. There's a distinct current of exploitation even if it does some good things here.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:47 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Although now I feel I ought add that, while there is definitely some purpose here, I think it is tough to deny that BTOOOM is also guilty of being way more graphic
than it needs to be. There's a distinct current of exploitation even if it does some good things here.

I won't dispute that at all. But then, the series is also clearly exploitative beyond just being sexually exploitative.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Because I'm aware it happens every day all over the globe and is one of the most common crimes out there, so you should be desensitized to it. Especially in shows that showcase how it happens in war like Fullmetal Alchemist or Magi. Rape happens all the time by soldiers in the real world and during wartime so to be surprised or shocked when you see it in a show is a bit unfounded, it's like being shocked when you see soldiers get killed in a war or something. Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean you should damn the writers or producers who put it in. If anything, give them an applause, because they succeeded in showing you some bad crap that happens in these situations all the time.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13230
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:19 pm Reply with quote
EireformContinent wrote:
ChibiKangaroo, the answer to your question was written by Marquis de Valmont by the hand of Pierre Choderlos de Laclos.
Rape lets woman to have sex without losing their innocence.


This is it precisely. Any frequent visitor to Sankaku Complex can tell you just how fans overreact to their 'waifus' having boyfriends (that aren't the audience surrogate). Because there's some crazy logic that just because they have (or had) a boyfriend, that obviously means they were screwing since the moment they started going out!

So your garden variety tentacle monster (which came into use to dodge Japan's censorship laws) allows for a girl to be in a sexually charged situation to stimulate the viewer's imaginations while at the same time not getting them angry at seeing their waifu 'act like a slut.'

Note that this pertains to official works. Step into doujinshi land and it's a whole different story.

The 'appeal' of rape is not about the sex. Rape is mostly about the power. The image of the otaku being a fat loser who can't get a date is quite stereotypical, but there is reality to it. As such there's a good chance a lot of them have been turned down by women and looked down upon by them in general. So the rape fantasy lets them turn the tables, to imagine themselves being the ones with the power, to 'punish' the women who've 'wronged' them.

This is likely prominent in Japan because it's still a pretty sexist culture. Women are supposed to "know their place" but with the rise of female independance, Japanese men don't possess the power they once had and seek to compensate.

This is my theory of why most doujinshi or hentai is predominantely rape based.

As for it's use in media, I get upset with just casual sex, so yeah (raged so hard during School Days). I'm kinda old fashioned like that Anime smallmouth + sweatdrop

But as been said before, I'm okay with rape as a plot device so long as it's treated with the severity it deserves. Not something like the Jinki:Extend manga that pointlessly rapes its heroines just because.

For some examples of rape from modern (or at least recentish) anime, two that come to mind are actually perpetrated by women. One I feel actually had a purpose, and another that didn't go so well...

1.) That scene from Kannazuki no Miko. It's what that show's infamous for, pretty much. Though it had a purpose: spoiler[Chikane did it to make Himeko hate her so Himeko would kill her since only one of them would get to live.]

2.) That scene in My-HiME. Well, if you define rape by penetration, I suppose it would be more accurate to say Shizuru molested Natsuki. It was really only to show just how crazy Shizuru was, but what's so bad about it is that she gets away with it (not to mention murder too). To make it even worse Shizuru has legions of fans willing to jump to her defense.

Otherwise it's as been said: rapists in anime are 99% of the time portrayed as the horrible people they are, and the act itself is not shown positively (how the audience reacts to it is an entirely different matter).

Shoujo does go off the deep end sometimes. These are works written by women for women so I have to wonder if some Japanese women also see themselves as things to be dominated?
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4829
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:02 pm Reply with quote
I don't desensitize myself to it at all. I just avoid it like the PLAGUE.

Vaisaga wrote:

1.) That scene from Kannazuki no Miko. It's what that show's infamous for, pretty much. Though it had a purpose: spoiler[Chikane did it to make Himeko hate her so Himeko would kill her since only one of them would get to live.]


a;lfjaldsjfa this..........this....that whole thing sends me into a rage...I ****-ing hate it......I ****-ing hate it ......I I ****-ING HATE IT. Twisted Evil
And the yuri fans!! "Dawwww she raped her but it was to save her life so that makes it OKAY. TRUE WUV FORVEERRRR"
BULLSHIT!

Here's what also gets to me. People say "it had a purpose" but spoiler[it didn't get Himeko to hate Chikane at all; she was instead CONSUMED by thoughts of her when before she thought she loved someone else, like the series was saying "A girl who is raped WILL fall in love with her rapist!" And yeah, I'd never been so horrified or disgusted by an anime that DARES say such a thing. So what it boils down to is "Chikane raped Himeko because Kaishaku wanted to draw a girl raping another girl and had no better idea on how to get them together because that's just how brilliant at writing they are."
THAT IS ALL.]



Quote:
Shoujo does go off the deep end sometimes. These are works written by women for women so I have to wonder if some Japanese women also see themselves as things to be dominated?

I don't get this crap at all. Though on another forum, someone had a theory that it was a form of "flattery", like the girl is so beautiful that the man can't control himself.
Ugh, sounds like more bullshit to me. =_= This is why I stick to shoujo aimed at a younger group because if you dare venture into the high school demographic, 95% of it is this misogynistic smut!


Last edited by Chiibi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:12 pm Reply with quote
I just dropped by to point out, since it hasn't been already, that successfully separating fantasy and real life is not the same thing as "desensitizing" to anything like rape, although it might look like it.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:21 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
Here's what also gets to me. People say "it had a purpose" but spoiler[it didn't get Himeko to hate Chikane at all; she was instead CONSUMED by thoughts of her when before she thought she loved someone else, like the series was saying "A girl who is raped WILL fall in love with her rapist!" And yeah, I'd never been so horrified or disgusted by an anime that DARES say such a thing. So what it boils down to is "Chikane raped Himeko because Kaishaku wanted to draw a girl raping another girl and had no better idea on how to get them together because that's just how brilliant at writing they are."
THAT IS ALL.]


Well, by purpose I mean Chikane did it for reasons other than just uncontrollable lust like Shizuru did.

I must say when I saw the show I didn't see it as "fall in love with the one who raped you." I saw it as "we were lovers in a past life so we must be lovers in this one too!" I consider that to be BS as well so I was unhappy either way.

Chiibi wrote:
Though on another forum, someone had a theory that it was a form of "flattery", like the girl is so beautiful that the man can't control himself.
Ugh, sounds like more bullshit to me. =_=


It is bullshit. Any guy with a shred of decency has self control.
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getchman
He started it



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:22 pm Reply with quote
well, it was supposed to work that way, but Himeko isn't the brightest bulb.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:28 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga you have this odd and slightly racist perception that rape porn and fantasies are somehow Japanese exclusive and representative of their culture, rather than it being extremely popular in America as well. Rape is the most popular fetish for women in America to the point where they've surveyed that 57% of all women have them, and those are just the ones willing to admit they've had that fantasy so who knows how much bigger the statistic it really is. It's very popular in exploitative American romance novels as well. Women read that stuff because they like it and it's a popular fetish among women. There's entire genres and subgenres of American porn dedicated to raping women, as well as shaming and dominating them. It's hardly some Japanese exclusive thing.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4829
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:32 pm Reply with quote
getchman wrote:
well, it was supposed to work that way, but Himeko isn't the brightest bulb.


I'm pretty sure Kaishaku just made her dumber "because the plot demanded it". =_= They can't write. Oh their artwork is beautiful and they're visually one of my favorites.
But they CAN'T write.

Quote:
I saw it as "we were lovers in a past life so we must be lovers in this one too!" I consider that to be BS as well so I was unhappy either way.

Heh, agreed. I was Team Souma from episode ONE. Anime hyper

Quote:
Rape is the most popular fetish for women in America to the point where they've surveyed that 57% of all women have them, and those are just the ones willing to admit they've had that fantasy so who knows how much bigger the statistic it really is.

O_____________o
........oh my God. Just when I thought society couldn't get any more f***ed-up.....
I....
I...am....really disturbed by this...right now.
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zawa113



Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 7358
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:17 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Rape is the most popular fetish for women in America to the point where they've surveyed that 57% of all women have them, and those are just the ones willing to admit they've had that fantasy so who knows how much bigger the statistic it really is.

Well, doesn't this make us mourn for humanity? I think I'm going to go live on my own little island now. It will have the second largest monkey head statue ever seen on it. It will also have a small tribe of vegetarian cannibals for me to be friends with so I don't get lonely.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13230
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:19 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
Vaisaga you have this odd and slightly racist perception that rape porn and fantasies are somehow Japanese exclusive and representative of their culture, rather than it being extremely popular in America as well. Rape is the most popular fetish for women in America to the point where they've surveyed that 57% of all women have them, and those are just the ones willing to admit they've had that fantasy so who knows how much bigger the statistic it really is. It's very popular in exploitative American romance novels as well. Women read that stuff because they like it and it's a popular fetish among women. There's entire genres and subgenres of American porn dedicated to raping women, as well as shaming and dominating them. It's hardly some Japanese exclusive thing.


Didn't say it was. However we're talking about media produced by that culture, so naturally I'm going to view it in the lense of that culture.
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Keichitsu0305





PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:39 pm Reply with quote
I was going to avoid this tread but....

Quote:
Rape is the most popular fetish for women in America to the point where they've surveyed that 57% of all women have them, and those are just the ones willing to admit they've had that fantasy so who knows how much bigger the statistic it really is.

Source? Preferably not from Wikipedia or some magazine.

HaruhiToy wrote:
I just dropped by to point out, since it hasn't been already, that successfully separating fantasy and real life is not the same thing as "desensitizing" to anything like rape, although it might look like it.


Precisely. Just like many anime involve teenagers (or younger) to engage in hostile combat, murdering someone out of revenge, or using one's authority to diminish the livelihood of others, any form of entertainment that utilizes sexual abuse is inevitable depending on the show. To separate the fictional murders, rapes, harassment, and such from the real-life ones doesn't mean you have to lessen the impact of reality.

If the story is well-written, the characters have been portrayed in a sympathetic light which the audience can either relate to (or simply enjoy watching them), then, obviously, when we see them get hurt, it causes an emotional reaction. But, at the end of the day, it was a fictional character being fictionally harmed in a fictional setting. Seeing anyone you have gotten to know (for the better, hopefully) will cause you to have a connection with that person in real-life.

So, if you hear something horrible has happened to that person, having an emotional reaction is normal. But, saying ignorant things like "oh, welp! Some person just got raped. Too bad!" isn't desensitizing yourself, it's simply disrespectful. Saying that for a fictional character? Well...yeah. It's fake. Yes, it happened but, that's how the story was written, plotted out, and performed. Rape in the real-life isn't some inconvenience that happens because fate (if that exists) wants to ruin your life so treating it like one, in reality not in fiction, isn't the best outlook on life in general.

Long post short: You don't "desensitize" yourself; you simply acknowledge that what you are seeing is a 2D character 'simulating' (not being) a rape scene.
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