Forum - View topicRevolutionary Girl Utena (TV).
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varmintx
 Posts: 1211 Location: Covington, KY |
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I apologize in advance if I’m incoherent; I’ve been doing Calculus 3 problems for five and half hours. I can hear my brain digging a tunnel through my head in an attempt to escape.
Since you go on to talk about Nanami, I have one specific question regarding her. In the final episode, spoiler[they make it a point that they should remain duelists to the end, but Nanami says she already took her ring off]. Since everything in that episode is put together so carefully, it seems that this is also there for some reason; I just have no idea what that reason might be. Anyone have any ideas?
No, I don’t think Tougo and Akio were having sex with each other. However, spoiler[there was often some overt sexuality involving the two of them together. I refer to my theory that the show is designed for teenage girls, and these guys are a warning: beware of pretty boys. ]
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Raven Shinobi
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Good luck (you'll needed), calculus was a nightmare for me in college and didn't finish the subject until my final year and that was only because my professor took pity on me because I was about to graduate.
I think since the rose crest signifies those who want to revolutionize the world and gain enternity, Nanami taking it off before the final showdown indicated that she wasn't interested in those things. If we thought about it, what was Nanami's objective to join the duelists circle? she had challnged Utena and wore the rose crest only because she thought there was something going on between her and Touga and then joined the student council only because Touga was absent and she wanted to be there for him while he was recuperating from the shock of being defeated. Unlike the other duelists -Touga, Saionji, Juri, Miki, Ruka and even the black rose circle, it wasn't to revolutionize the world and gain eternity, just to keep her brother to herself and since she significatly grew during the apocalypse saga, none of that mattered to her anymore by the final episodes, Ithink.
Heh, that bit with them taking pictures with their shirts unbuttoned and acting all sexy was a good bit of fan-service for me  though with the exception of Akio, I don't find the men in that show appealing.
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WesW
 Posts: 144 |
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Both the series and the movie were listed as appropriate for "Older Children" in the encyclopedia. It seemed to me that the series should be bumped up to teens for spoiler[the incest storyline with Anthy in the later episodes], and the movie to older teens for the spoiler[discussion of child rape and the nude lesbian scene at the end.]
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Raven Shinobi
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I heard there used to be an edited version of the first 13 episodes of the Utena TV series, were they referring to that  But, yeah, the TV series and the movie are things that absolutely aren't kid-friendly.
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voluptas
 Posts: 28 Location: Japan |
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I haven't seen the whole series yet (I will get around to it soon) but I've enjoyed what I've seen so far. I only watched the series through the Black Rose Saga and I really like that arc, even though I know its not a favorite of many fans. I took a strong liking to Mikage and Mamiya so I have a strong interest in them. I find it interesting that they seem to parallel Utena and Anthy.
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Actually, from what I have seen in other Utena fan communities, Black Rose Saga (inexplicably to me) is one of the most popular arcs. There are a lot of Mikage fangirls, not to mention that Shiori gets a fair amount of attention in this one too (doesn't she?) Personally, I didn't like the Black Rose arc at all. Felt very fillerish (and it was just a tacked on side-story in the manga...although many fans will call blashemy for me even mentioning the manga and the anime in the same idea). Of course, I can't see how any of the male characters of this show are worth "fangirling". With the exception of Akio, I thought they were all fairly unattractive, and all were controlling and often mentally or physically abusive (well, in Miki's case it was more like he was the recepient of emotional abuse and being controlled). They all rather repulse me. But Utena and Anthy...now there's a pair that'll fangirl--though not as hard as Haruka and Michiru of Sailor Moon (or my guilty pleasure thoughts of an Ami-Mako relationship undertones from the same series). That being said...I do think I would fall to Akio's charms. Try as he might, Touga comes off like a sleazy car salesman to me, while Akio pulls off the suave speeches and made my heart thump. While I wanted to scream spoiler[ at Utena for falling for him--I really couldn't blame her, he truly seemed to know how to play a woman's heart effectively], at least in my opinion. |
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Raven Shinobi
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The manga considered bad by most Utena fans? I just ordered my copy because I felt I wanted more after finishing the Adolescence Mokushiroku movie that I was quite disappointed with -enjoyed the symbolism here and there, but didn't like the protrayal of some characters like spoiler[making Touga a victim of child rape and turning Akio into wuss (WTF)] and I hate Shiroi and all the screentime she received in it.
I too with the exception of Akio -I mean who couldn't find him appealing in that recurring scene in the apocalypse arc when he hops in front of the car and sits there with his shirt unbuttoned- didn't find the men the least bit bishounen-y, and is there really Mikage fangirls? With that pink hair  I also thought that Miki was actually a girl before his gender was revealed in the third episode, he was too much of a pretty boy for my taste.
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Mylene
Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Yes, the manga is considered very bad by just about every other Utena fan I know. Except me. I loved it. Basically, it's a pretty similar story, but all of Ikuhara's hardcore symbolism is stripped out. For me, it made an easily understandable counterpart to the anime. To everyone else (particularly the Mikage fangirls who lost their favorite character, same for the Shiori and Ruka fangirls who had the same thing happen, and Anthy fans as well because she loses her passive-aggressive tendencies, if I remember correctly) it was abysmal trash and many curse the name Saito Chiho. I think it's a pity. Yes, it loses some of the depth, but it's still an endearing little manga that shows the series in a very different light. It's not as strong, but I personally love it more than any other manga I've read fully thus far. Plus, my favorite character (Utena herself) still is pretty much the same, and I enjoy seeing a slightly weaker Anthy...I'm a fool for damsels in distress getting rescued by damsels not in distress. As for the movie...I greatly preferred the manga version of it. The movie, while very pretty, was just a bit too much for me. The spoiler[car wash race thing] was what ruined it for me though, I kind of liked some of the other aspects. However, I haven't seen it since the first time I watched it back in 2002 (or so) after I just finished watching the series for the first time. I need to get around to my 3rd viewing of the series sometime soon (when I catch up with all of the other anime series I've purchased and haven't watched) and rewatch the movie to see if I can't appreciate it more with a bit more age and experience. Moreover, some more thought-provoking anime under my belt. Around the time I first watched the show, my anime was pretty limited to shoujo/mahou shoujo (Sailor Moon, Magic Knight Rayearth, Fushigi Yuugi, and Marmalade Boy) and just a couple of non-shoujo (Trigun and maybe Crest of the Stars). Watching the series the second time, I was able to delve more deeply into the symbolism, and go past my shallower first impressions. Hopefully the same will be true of the movie--besides, I've seen too many pretty movie AMVs, must rewatch.
Miki was always just a kid brother to me (never thought of him as a girl, even when he started talking with Sailor Mercury's voice ^_-). Good tagalong for Jury and Nanami. But the rest of the guys (minus Akio) were just so...ugh...to me. To hear so many women fangirl over them makes a little piece of me die, even if I know I shouldn't let it bother me. Yes, they grow some, and Touga even improves a little in my eyes towards the end of the series, but I just can't find anything remotely attractive about them--personality or appearance. I do wish I could chop off Akio's ponytail. Too much like a rat-tail/mullet thing going. ^_- Last edited by Mylene on Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:37 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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varmintx
Posts: 1211 Location: Covington, KY |
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The snow storm here gave me the time I needed to finally write this. Same deal as before, there won’t be any spoiler tags for this post, so stop reading if you have not watched the movie.
Let me start off by saying that I, as many people did, had a reaction of disappointment to the movie, though I would like to point out that I didn’t dislike it. I was convinced I simply didn’t understand what Ikuhara was going for. So, I waited a couple of weeks, and then watched it again. In the middle of that time, I watched David Lynch’s classic Eraserhead and Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence. Those two films put me into the correct mindset for this film: don’t try to fit it into a box. Despite still having a few reservations, I found that I enjoyed it much more the second time. (Note: This is pretty odd; Wiki’s Utena page actually mentions Eraserhead in its description of the movie.) The first problem that an Utena fan faces is the fact that all the characters you’ve spent so much time with in the series are not actually the characters in this film. Anthy is so different that it is simply jarring to see her act that way. After watching it for the second time, knowing what to expect, this difficulty is pretty well resolved. One thing that cannot be resolved is the awkward pacing. The film throws plot at you very quickly, then just stops to take a break for what appears to be no other reason then to show some eye candy. A personal problem I had with the film is the complete lack of subtlety. I don’t just mean Anthy’s behavior or the faux nudity, but also the way some of the dialogue is bludgeoned over your head during the car chase. This however is simply a result of the movement from television to film, in that, it is necessary to condense and simply due to time constraints. So, I really can’t hold it against the film or the filmmaker. Another confusing change is the fact that Utena is trapped by the memory of Touga. This is confusing since: 1. Touga’s dead. 2. This fact is kept hidden throughout most of the film. 3. Utena loved Touga which is quite different from how she felt about him through most of the series. 4. (This is a little difficult to explain) in the series, Utena was trapped by a much more general concept of a prince, but in the film she is pining away for a specific long lost love. This is less acceptable, and accessible for the audience to make the proper connection to the point of the story. The traditional “prince” is a much better representation of those childish, adolescent feelings and desires (I’m still not happy with it, but I have to move on). I never had a problem with Utena’s transformation; it is foreshadowed by reminding you that Nanami turned into a cow during the series and also with the street signs leading to where the truth about Touga is revealed. I might add here, notice that this revelation takes place in an elevator that is heading down. Much like the Black Rose arc, this imagery is used to show Utena going deep within herself to face the truth. “CAUTION, DANGER AHEAD, YOU WILL DIE” and “Today’s main event is about to start.” This is our introduction to the finale.
Of course, such an endeavor is not an easy one, and the car chase that follows chronicles the difficulties with some fairly obvious symbolism and even more obvious dialogue. Shiori is up first, she is the one telling you how foolish you are and how you must fail and that she knows full-well how to actually accomplish the task at hand all on her own. She is easily disposed of by her own lack of vision. The black cars are the ever-present dread. However, “friendship saved the day.” No one can go out all on their own; friends will be needed for their support. The heroes in our story thought the castle was the exit (notice how it appears and disappears upon its entrance), it symbolizes the illusionary point where we think we have it all sorted out and we finally have everything under control in our lives. After coming so far to meet yet another daunting task, the temptation to retreat to the known (I’m getting to it) is very appealing. Our heroes obviously do not take the bypass and continue on. The final hurtle will be the past; it will attempt one last shot at halting any progress made. The prince keeps telling Anthy to be a “living corpse.” Women can choose to devote themselves to a man; to give up their own identities. Or, they can choose to live for themselves, which is Anthy’s reply. The temptation may be to assume this is an anti-male message in nature, and their clutching each other in the nude during an explosion of flower petals doesn’t help to dissuade us from that thought, but it is more about being assertive and taking control of your life. This is the perilous journey our heroines have just partaken in. [OT]: I really have to stop using so many parenthetical notes (but I probably won’t). |
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snarf
 Posts: 9 |
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I have been watching a few episodes on a funimation block on my digital cable. I think I started watching about episode 10 and have only seen a few.
But I have to say it is an iteresting series so far. First, although it looks a few years old I feel the artwork is pretty good. I also really like the music, such as the enterence before the duels. But mostly, it just seems like a creative series. Something out of the ordinary and I am looking forward to seeing it though. |
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Raven Shinobi
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I had the same problem as well, the only one who seemed faithful to the anime to me were Juri and Saionji and it was disappointing -albeit funny- that Nanami was a spoiler[cow] in this one.
I'm still confused by the whole thing with Touga, we saw him talk to Anthy and had slept with Shiori and he's still supposed to be an illusion created by Utena's lingering feelings
Overall, as a fan of the anime: the movie was disappinting and I don't think I would ever want to rewatch it to see if I had misjudged it or not anytime soon, I personally would've prefered it if the movie was just a sequel to see how the characters were doing after the anime -like the case with Kimagure Orange Road the movie- instead of a retelling that left many fans with mixed feelings. |
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utawoutau
 Posts: 194 |
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Utena is my favorite anime of all time. Maybe that is simply a product of where my mind was when I watched it, but I still pull out the DVDs and rewatch the entire series at least once a year.
My favorite moments of the show are the aftermath of the first duel with Touga, the Wakaba arc in the Black Rose Saga (spoiler[its so tragic]), and of course the ending - OMG what an ending. I think I enjoy those episodes because they tug at me emotionally in ways that most television cannot. I agree that the show can drag at times, the duels become repetitive and not very interesting (especially during the Black Rose saga). I remember reading an interview with Kunihiko Ikuhara where he lamented how difficult it became to keep the fight scenes interesting. He mentioned in the same interview that he originally wanted the characters to duel with pistols, but thought that high school students shooting guns at each other would not play well outside of Japan (America in particular). In addition, although I do enjoy the Nanami centric episodes, I often skip all but the egg episode when I re-watch the series. To be fair, though, I think at least one of the Nanami episodes is actually a poorly disguised recap episode. The one portion of the show that I am somewhat dissatisfied in is the resolution of the Black Rose Saga. I can come up with my own theories on what was what in most of the show, but I can't quite come up with anything cohesive to explain Mikage, what he was, what he was doing, the whole Black Rose society, etc. The closest thing I've come to an explanation derives from the ending when spoiler[Akio looks to be preparing for a new round of duels ], this led me to speculate that maybe Mikage spoiler[was the champion duelist in the past who obviously ultimately failed in producing a sword for Akio, and as a result remains at Ootori - in a type of purgatory - forever as Akio's tool.] That doesn't however explain how everyone spoiler[forgets about Nemuro Memorial Hall and Mikage]. Ack! I love the movie as well. I actually saw the movie before I finished watching the Black Rose Saga, and I was totally disappointed that no one in the TV series spoiler[turns into a car]. I guess I can understand why people might dislike that sequence, but that totally makes the movie for me. That and Juri's hair is so much prettier in the movie. |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Hello! I just watched Utena for the first time, and..... well. Actually, I finished it today since I only had a few more episodes until the end and couldn't stop so I watched until 1:30 in the morning =P. And wow, what an ending. It's like my brain is imploding trying to make sense of anything.
I want to start off by saying that I know this is the kind of series where it is impossible to understand everything, and that many points have multiple interpretations, but I honestly didn't understand anything except the surface story before I started reading everyone's analyses (which have been so helpful, thank you everyone!). I just really wanted to sit down and have a long discussion with some Utena fans to help me understand this revolutionary series. So, spoiler[ Anthy is supposedly some kind of witch (didn't completely get that either but let's leave that for now) and is immortal, correct? Then why does she try to throw herself off a building in the last arc? If she's immortal she wouldn't die, it would just really REALLY hurt, right?] Also, in the last ep, spoiler[ Utena is trying to save Anthy from her coffin (which I DID get, Im so proud of myself! =D) but doesn't reach Anthy in time and she falls. But then 5 minutes later we see Anthy walking around and she's fine! Not only that, she's broken out of her shell of solitude (or coffin of solitude, if you will) and has developed the strength to refuse her brother and set out on her own. I guess that, even though Utena was not able to pull Anthy out, she had opened the cover a crack, and on her own strength Anthy was able to emerge?] And about Akio.... so much to discuss about him!spoiler[ Were he and Anthy actually brother and sister? Akio is supposed to be what's left of the kind-hearted prince Anthy saved, correct? But how can that even be.... Akio is such a smarmy jerk! It's hard to believe that he'd change that much, especially evolving to the point where he abuses the one who saved him!] I'll leave it there for now. Thank you in advance to anyone guiding me to further understanding of Utena! |
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EireformContinent
 Posts: 977 Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land) |
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Other interpretations are welcome. It would be better to submit your own idea before you read mine- I've seen a lot of them and most could make sense.
spoiler[ The last scenes shows that nothing happened at all. Revolution didn't happen, but nobody cares. Everyone is having own life, Anthy shows middle finger to her brother and goes her way. We can look for multiple interpretations of witch, Dios, Akio, etc, but why? We were deceived for 38 1/2 episodes and we have to face the truth. All Rose Game was fake. Akio is afraid of real life that made him to create the game where he is master and lord. When his sword is broken and the gate stays closed he doesn't seem to worry, because in the bottom of his hart he still remembers that it's just a game- even if he believes in it so hard that it become reality. So does everyone. It's clearly visible in Black Rose Saga when itąs clear that Akio treats everything and everyone as a private playhouse. That's not an accident that Akio chose for Duelists people with problems and disturbed physic. Is offer- replacing real problems with artificial ones. Theatre instead of real life. That's ideal argument to not focus on real problems. Instead they chase the shadow, believing that at the end the victory magically will solve their problems. Dios, arena, witch, everything was just a decoration. Fiction and reality in minds become one, so everyone lose himself into this world. They are like prince's court isolated in castle, playing their games and pretending to forget about the plague in the country. The Game hurts, but nobody wants it to stop, because it's equal to admit that it's just a game and take the challenge of real life. That's why Anthy tried to kill Utena. Whatever she choose to open the door or not her victory would mean the end of the game. That's why Akio didn't open the gate. That's why Utena is sorry. Sorry for pretending to be a prince, to play with illusions, to not break the seal earlier.] |
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Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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That's interesting!! I've heard from one other person who also thinks spoiler[ that all of Ohtori academy was an illusion, and that when Anthy left the campus in the last episode she was leaving the pretend world behind for the real world. I don't totally agree with the theory of there being no revolution though. It's true Utena didn't 'win' the game, which allowed Akio to keep control and continue playing puppetmaster (which Im super glad you pointed out, I hadn't seen that aspect!). ]
spoiler[But I believe Utena did gain the power to revolutionize the world. Or more accurately, A world. Himemiya Anthy's world. Utena revolutionized Anthy's outlook on life, allowing her out of her coffin so she could go and actually live life.] |
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