Forum - View topicThe "Whiny" Card: Valid or Not?
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4102 |
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No. In that world, everyone's life genuinely sucks. I don't understand the disconnect about that part, aside from the director's placement of his depression over everyone else and Shinji being his avatar. Fights don't occur in a vacuum and his life of misery and death is not unique, even if the details of it are. So my opinion: Whiny bastard who'd rather do nothing while being safely raised above the rest while they become collateral damage cowering in fear. It's all about him, his pain. You know, a self absorbed sophist is probable not the best person to do a universal restart. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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So let me get this straight. You - well, your fourteen-year-old self - would be totally boss if you were the main character in NGE. Sure, you spoiler[ suffer from clinical depression, have trust and abandonment issues, and are the only line of defence to protect the entire planet after being strong-armed at no notice into fighting mind-raping abominations in a machine possessed by the soul of your dead mother.] But you wouldn't have any problem with all that, oh not at all. And you certainly wouldn't whine about it. You'd just get the work done quickly, efficiently and without drama, and then go for a quiet drink afterwards and toast your own manliness and awesomeness. Yep, you'd be the infallible hero that Tokyo-3 - nay, the entire world - needs and deserves. If you want to go write some fanfiction with you as the Gary Stu self-insert then that's cool. But leave the adults alone; we're busy talking right now. [EDIT: Spoiler tags added. -TK |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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Yep, this is one of the reasons I dislike these types of characters. They are NOT some generic representative of the average person, but instead they are a selfish avatar for the writer/producer etc. This character allows them to purge all of their own excessive angst and insecurities. We watch them wallow in it for numerous episodes, under a pretext of teaching us something about human emotion/struggle. We learn nothing though. Instead, we just bask in the angst, the annoying self-hate and depression of it. The reason I mentioned the examples of Yoko Nakajima and Usagi is because they are emo/angsty characters who start off that way but rapidly begin to rise above it. We don't wallow in their personal weakness at length. We see them develop beyond it and inspire us. I'm not against showing characters who are emotional or depressed, I just want to be inspired by them, not annoyed by them. |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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You have your right to dislike them...but calling them "selfish avatars" I think is going a little far. Anno's no people-pleaser; he told the story he felt that he needed to tell, probably as much for himself as for others. He didn't force anyone to watch his work. You could have turned it off anytime, right?
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Lain'sHairline
 Posts: 158 Location: Dallas, TX |
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You have your right to dislike them...but calling them "selfish avatars" I think is going a little far. Anno's no people-pleaser; he told the story he felt that he needed to tell, probably as much for himself as for others. He didn't force anyone to watch his work. You could have turned it off anytime, right?[/quote]
100% Agreed. You should take a work as a whole and enjoy it for what it is, if you don't like it why waste time on it? Move on to greener pastures. 
[EDIT: Please observe our policy on over-quoting. Thanks. -TK] |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Well, you didn't refute Akane's points, more like you proved mine. That being said, if Shinji is author's avatar, do you think the author is not an average person? He does put more emphasis on Shinji, but isn't every protagonist like that? I also question how much attention you paid while watching Eva. How many times did Shinji actually wallow instead of stayed true to his character? Did he not rise above his insecurities and get in the robot every other episode even if it was for the wrong reasons or because he was manipulated? What makes you think Anno wants to teach something while Shinji wallows? Afaik he only wants to show the inner workings of Shinji's mind. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Yea, this is my point. For so long he is just getting in the robot because he is being manipulated into it, and we just watch him crying and whimpering. Why do I want to watch that? What purpose does that have for me? It seems like the purpose is that the author wants to get something off his own shoulders about his own insecurities or fears, and is placing huge emphasis on that and beating it into our head episode after episode after episode. I think another great show to compare this to is Attack on Titan. Eren is emo/angsty early on, but he rapidly overcomes his own demons and stands up and fights for himself and his friends. We watch him grow and triumph over it. Also, he joins the military because he has personal goals. He's not dragged into it whimpering and crying. I don't find that whimpering, crying, wallowing character appealing when they stay that way for a long period of time and don't show much growth. That's why I also brought up the example of Yoko Nakajima. The writers make it clear at the beginning what her personal struggles are, and then we see those challenges shoved into her face right at the start. She changes in order to survive, and we watch her grow as a person. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Okay, but you're still saying that Shinji is simply not the character you want him to be, but make it sound like it's the show's problem. You want a heroic figure that you can find inspiration in, Anno wants to tell a story about a damaged kid who for a variety of reasons can't grow into his own.
Eren having an angst is used more as a tool. It makes it easier to root for him and when he needs to kick ass that angst is conveniently swept aside by cliched reasoning. It works for Attack on Titan, because it is a completely different show, only the basic plot is the same. But it also makes Eren a much shallower character than Shinji, so he doesn't serve as a comparison. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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How is Eren's suffering and personal defects any less deep than Shinji's? Both of them have a shady, distant father who is involved in scientific stuff and uses them for military purposes. Both of them don't have a mom around, but in Eren's case we actually get to watch his personal anguish and devastation as he watches his mother ripped apart by a Titan eating her. Both of them are living in a society under siege by giant, frightful monsters that slaughter scores of people with each incursion. We are shown numerous times how this affects Eren, physically and emotionally. Somehow, Eren is "much shallower?" That makes no sense. Eren is deeper as a character than Shinji, and he's also a much better character, for the reasons I've already outlined. Look, I understand that some people enjoy wallowing in angsty characters. There is some appeal to it if you share that depressing, nihilistic worldview of the author. It's the same reason that a lot of people think Light Yagami is the greatest hero anime has ever produced, even though in that case the author has explicitly said Light shouldn't be interpreted in that way. I think it is bad writing though when an author writes a character in a way that they can only appeal to a certain subset of society that agrees with and shares the author's personal angst. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Suffering has no "depth". It's a feeling that character either has or hasn't and I'm not talking about its intensity. I'm talking about character depth as an exploration of how the character feels, thinks, what drives them. That's exactly what Anno does when you think that Shinji's wallowing. So yes, Eren is shallower. His inner world isn't that important for the narrative. Him overcoming his suffering to kill titans is.
This idea that only people who like wallowing in angst can enjoy Shinji seems to be a relatively common stereotype. Certainly, people who've gone through depression can sympathize with Shinji easier (though I've seen the reverse as well), but if you would familiarize yourself more with Eva fanbase, you'd find yourself wrong. And even it were true, and Shinji could appeal to only a certain subset of society, you have not provided an argument for why it's bad writing. To my knowledge there are no universally liked characters, at least not ones where their characterization is at the centre of the narrative. All you're basically saying is that it's bad writing, because you and a lot of others don't enjoy it. Another thing, Anno doesn't have a nihilistic worldview. Did you see the dream sequence in episode 26? That's the most in-your-face argument against that. The whole ending of the show is about convincing that you can't be happy if you shut yourself off/run away completely. The show is agnostic, so obviously, there is no higher purpose for people's lives in that world. But thinking that there's no meaning that can be provided by someone else than ourselves is not nihilism. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I certainly agree that this is bad writing in my opinion. All of this stuff is subjective of course. However, I think you are kind of making my point here, because I was primarily arguing against people who were saying that characters like Shinji represent the "everyman." That was how a lot of people were responding to the criticism, by saying he's just supposed to represent the emotional struggles of every person and have that kind of mass appeal of humanity. However, he doesn't have that, for the reasons you and I have just been discussing. I do agree that he has appeal to some people, but he is not the everyman. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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Your Eren-Shinji comparison lacks the critical difference: Shinji was dropped into the cockpit with no training, no warning and immediately after having his hopes of bonding with his father crushed; it'd be like if spoiler[Dr. Jaeger injected Eren and forced him to titanshift within a few minutes of their reunion]. Even if you think Shinji's ridiculously whiny, he has some damn good reasons.
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Lain'sHairline
Posts: 158 Location: Dallas, TX |
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Seconded. And your avatar is tight dude. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I don't think anyone is making that argument here though. Shinji is an average person in a sense that his personality is not exceptional even though his circumstances are. I definitely don't think Anno sees it that way either. At best he represents an overgeneralized image of an otaku.
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Oh please, Eren and everyone in his city was "dropped into" the situation with the Titans. Eren watching his mom being ripped apart was just as traumatic as Shinji being stuck into a mech. The difference between them is that Eren decided to train himself to fight, and Shinji cowered and whimpered. |
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