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Answerman - Categorization Is Death

Categorization can be useful because it helps us know what to expect from series that might otherwise be in the same genre.

For example, I'm a fan of (most) romance anime. But there is a huge difference in romance titles amongst different demographic categories.

Shounen romance is mostly non-existent apart from teenage crushes, but when it does exist it's similar to Seinen.
Seinen romance often has harems, fanservice and unbelievably virginal girls. "saving girls from tragedy" is a big theme for dramatic Seinen romance (e.g. CLANNAD and many other visual novel-based titles) The story ends when they guy gets the girl. (if he ever does)
Shoujo romance is a bit more down to earth (especially on sexual topics) but often has over the top drama, though usually less tragedy than Seinen. They're very "chick-flick romantic comedy'-esque, or have fantasy elements. The story doesn't end when the couple gets together, though they may or may not take a long time to get together.
Jousei romance is very down to earth. Relationships are usually quite realistic and sex isn't taboo at all. Still lots of drama but rarely if ever any fantasy. (As in, "faeries and unicorns" fantasy, there's plenty of romantic fantasy)

I love Jousei titles and a lot of Shoujo, and while there are definitely Seinen titles I like, I am generally wary of them since I don't care for fanservice, harems or "Oh no a boy touched my boob now I can't be a virginal wife" shows. I also happen to be a female in my mid 20s, which makes me - oh my! - right in the target demographic for Jousei. So it makes a lot of sense for me to look for other Jousei titles.

On the other hand, It's really refreshing to see so many guys on the internet talking about and enjoying Shoujo romance shows, and I'm guessing they never would have given them a try if they had a big "THIS IS FOR 15-YEAR OLD GIRLS" sticker slapped on the poster. So categorizing things is definitely a double-edged sword.

This is depressingly true, but the solution isn't to remove the categorization; it's to remove the stigma. The problem here is sexism, not labels; it's ridiculous that we still accept that male-targeted media is for everyone but female-targeted media has girl cooties ewww.

I'm glad you showed the long "o" for describing girl's comics [...] But, women's comics does not have a long "o", it's "josei" [女性].

I'm not sure why the traditional genre classifications (fantasy, sci-fi, romance, etc.) doesn't work well for Japanese comics.

No, the only definitive factor in how you can categorize manga (or light novel, and any resulting anime) is the original magazine it was serialized in.

why does it even need to be categorized at all ?

lebrel wrote:

This is depressingly true, but the solution isn't to remove the categorization; it's to remove the stigma. The problem here is sexism, not labels; it's ridiculous that we still accept that male-targeted media is for everyone but female-targeted media has girl cooties ewww.

Seems to be the reverse now. Most girl oriented media is seen in a better light than male ones. You'll easily find reviewers praising some shoujo/josei series more than say a typical shonen or seinen adaptation. This applies to the anime and manga scene. Not sure if the same thing happens to other facets of nerdom.

I think it is more for the advertisers' benefit than anything.

Greed1914 wrote:

Quote:

I think it is more for the advertisers' benefit than anything.

However as soon as a title escapes the confines of the magazine the label lacks even that benefit. By the time a manga title gets here it is of no use at all.

Paiprince wrote:

lebrel wrote: This is depressingly true, but the solution isn't to remove the categorization; it's to remove the stigma. The problem here is sexism, not labels; it's ridiculous that we still accept that male-targeted media is for everyone but female-targeted media has girl cooties ewww. Seems to be the reverse now. Most girl oriented media is seen in a better light than male ones. You'll easily find reviewers praising some shoujo/josei series more than say a typical shonen or seinen adaptation. This applies to the anime and manga scene. Not sure if the same thing happens to other facets of nerdom.

I'm not seeing this. Reviewers for big sites like ANN have to cover everything, so they get exposed to the girl stuff and I suppose the cooties-phobia wears off if they ever had that problem. But there are plenty of people on smaller sites and personal blogs and in meatspace, not to mention posters on this forum, who will openly state that they aren't interested in checking out works if they're for girls (or even that they don't need to try them, because they're guaranteed to be bad).

And praise for a handful of well-received shoujo series doesn't mean "Most girl oriented media is seen in a better light than male ones.". There are a couple of topics that are popular with niches that tend to not go over well outside their fans (excessive or abusive fanservice upsets a lot of people, many people are bored by moe girls-being-cute shows), and every now and then we get a blatantly phoned-in show for guys where apparently the fact that it's already popular means that the studio can blow it off (anyone remember World Trigger?). But being female-targeted doesn't save anything from this; go look up the preview reviews for Diabolik Lovers for an example of ANN reviewers creeped out by a girl-niche title.

I've always felt that the Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen/Josei classifications don't really mean much. Most "Shonen" sports series like Prince of Tennis or Yowamushi Pedal? Predominantly female fanbase.

Monthly Girls' Nozaki-kun, which parodied loads of Shoujo tropes and clichés? Since it was originally published on Gangan Online, that would make it Shonen, going off of what else they've published.

ARIA, Amanchu! (barring the fanservice-y tankobon covers), and Tamayura (all iyashikei slice of life series)? Shonen by publication as well.

And while I haven't read any of Cyborg 009, I'm still pretty sure its 5th arc is pretty atypical for a Shoujo manga.

Pet peeve sorry. [...] But, women's comics does not have a long "o", it's "josei" [女性]. "Jousei" is again another word [情勢].

Although I was kinda put off by your condescending tone towards seinen, this pretty much falls in line with how I would categorize the types of romance for these demographics.

You're only seeing one side of the issue. There is just as much of those blogs and sites who swing to the other direction and lambast shounen and seinen as the stuff for prepubescent boys and NEET losers. One need only have a look at tumblr even just to hear them whine and moan about too much boobs.

And many people are bored with moe shows with cute girls? Non Non Biyori, Kiniro Mosaic, Gochiusa and many others would blow that statement out of the water. Perhaps in your specific circle, but not the entire anime fandom.

Same goes for "exploit heavy" series like Diabolik Lovers or Brothers Conflict. The hoity-toity reviewer circle may despise those, but surprisingly there are a lot of fans for these kinds. Why else would more of these come out if they're not bringing in the money?