Forum - View topicSword Art Online: A Series of Retcons
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SaneSavantElla
 Posts: 232 |
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This is true. Like I said, at some point it's become a trend to bash SAO - there are definitely more people hating on it. The thing is, you don't need to have more vocal fans than haters for the idea of "this fandom is toxic" to spread, you only need to meet or read comments from one or two people for it to stick (regardless of whether it's true or not). And in time, that reputation inflates and becomes so huge, it clouds the true value of the series.
This on the other hand is something I've seen many a SAO fan claim when in fact the series is actually quite popular. Why else would it be getting season after season and movie after movie if it doesn't have a following? But I guess the perspective is unique to the English-speaking side of the globe? Because from where I live its fans are not afraid to say they like SAO. |
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CrownKlown
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This article highlights why I've never liked sao. This disjointed retcon format is rampant and the norm in western comics. I've never been a fan and it's why I don't particular enjoy anything because just look at the marvel movies sure it's roughly the same characters but plenty of stuff was tweaked for the film verse.
Some people like that and it's okay, but others prefer normal linear canon stories and at least when things deviate like the fate series it's clearly delineated as its own thing. Like tenchi muyo universe and Tokyo are three unrelated stories that use the same characters versus marvels nonsense about mcu 66 etc trying to tie everything into some big relater but unrelated ball. I think clamp are the worst offenders and it shows. |
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Pedram
Posts: 83 |
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Yes, SAO is very popular, specially in Japan, SAO is always at top of the sales or popularity, Kirito & Asuna are almost permanently part of the Top 10 monthly NewType ranking and let alone the merchandise market... a Japanese friend of mine once said SAO is so popular in japan that is "acceptable" as a "non-weeb" thing, so even Japanese who look down on anime or light novels in general, would not think of liking or watching SAO as being an Otaku or non-anime fans also go to watch the SAO Movies without problem. But outside of Japan, SAO is not so accepted. While some people do not care, I have seen it over and over again that many people are afraid of touching it simply because they are afraid they would be mocked for it. I did a quick search through my own reddit comments, first example I found when I recommended SAO Progressive and 86 to someone: 
I agree on you on the Marvel so much, one of the reasons i could never get into the Marvel comics and only occasionally saw the movies. Although for SAO, the "retcons" are nowhere near as huge. Ordinal Scale movie by itself didn't retcon anything, rather added new things to the story, the addition of it in Alicization did but it is not part of the light novel but the anime, the only big retcon is this new movie that is also it's own timeline considering the Author mentioned he would not include the new original character from this movie in its light novel. SAO Light Novels themselves are pretty linear with only minor details tweaked from Volume 1 & 2 + 1 side story, and by minor tweaks I mean stuff like Kirito's inner monologue of saying "This is the first time i joined a party" in Floor ~25 once but then we see him join a party in floor 1 in later side stories. Kirito & Asuna's first meeting also was never mentioned in original SAO, we are just told that they know each other for a long time and Asuna keep on keeping track on Kirito from her friendlist and try to get close to him... So SAO Progressive making their meeting on Floor 1 does not directly retcon anything specially since it wont change any future event at all. (They still will separate and everything happen the same way as in main SAO, it even add extra info on why things happened in main SAO the way it did) The Author himself confirmed this many time that SAOP is just a story of what happened in original SAO's timeskip and not included, and it wont retell anything already told in main SAO. So yeah, putting aside the first 2 volume, the rest of the 24 volume + 8 volume of SAO Progressive + many canon side story all are linear and without any retcon. Honestly, In my opinion Reki should spend just a couple of hours to edit and re-release Volume 1 & 2 to remove those simple inconsistencies lol |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Really think people in the West tend to overestimate the hate and disparagement of SAO. Back before COVID hit, I commonly saw cosplays of Kirito, Asuna, or Leafa at conventions (and I look forward to seeing a good Alice done when anime 'cons resume). I've seen people carry around SAO merch and never once taken grief for having an SAO movie-themed dice bag or SAO as my staple background picture on my personal laptop. SAO figma are not hard to find at gaming or anime conventions, either. In particular, I've almost never seen high schoolers who know anything about anime diss the series. Heck, I've even taken one of my four SAO figma to school to show off. People on the Internet may get riled up about it, but the people who actually drive the series' popularity don't care.
I'll never dispute that SAO deserves at least some of the grief it's taken over the years. It's had its share of storytelling flaws and scenes of questionable taste, after all. But I'd never hesitate to admit that I'm a fan despite that. |
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fuuma_monou
 Posts: 1822 Location: Quezon City, Philippines |
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Would you recommend SAO to Accel World fans who've been avoiding SAO? IIRC there was a crossover movie. |
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Pedram
Posts: 83 |
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I also think you are right and many people, mostly those that has been more in the internet than outside, overestimate the hate for SAO but this also made them avoid it or feel shameful to buy it. Sadly, in the internet, the amount of misinformation and mindless hate around it is also so out of hand that it make some people exposed to these believe it's not worth even giving it a fair try. Since I regularly recommend SAO along with other novels in the last couple of years, there is no shortage of haters who would call SAO or Kirito one of the worse thing ever and then proudly announce they didn't even watch the show but they don't need to watch it to know it's shit... As well as people who don't really care or know about SAO but reply with "Everyone know SAO is bad, just watch a review or something" and disregard the recommendation lol A funny example I saw in MAL this time was when Alicization anime announced, some guy genuinely making a post asking "Why are they still making SAO even though everyone know it's very bad and hate it ? why the creator not stop making it and go make something else that make him money instead ?" like this guy somehow thought SAO is so hated that it's not profitable and felt weird it's still getting made. lol
There is no crossover movie between SAO & AW, there was a Game, but it's not canon. it had some nice plot tho, like Persona Vabel's situation was very good imo. There was also a Crossover side story, which is also not canon. But the SAO & Accel World does happen in the same universe, just ~20 years apart from each other (SAO: 2022 ~ 2026+ / AW: 2044+). I'm not up to date with AW yet so I can't truly compare SAO and AW and give you detailed recommendation if you will like it or not, but I am spoiled of the connection & references between AW & SAO. So it's pretty nice if you want to read SAO and see more about the foundation of some technology and some nice tidbits about AW. I give a few minor spoiler : spoiler[ Like Kirito show Asuna the new developing social security camera on their date and tell her how it's likely to be used all around the city eventually, which is a big part of AW and how BB work, or Fluctlight and STL Technology is first developed in SAO, the STL Machine + Augma is the early design of Neuralinker and Kirito even hint at it's future creation, Neuralinker is created by RECT/Reckt which is Asuna's family company which Kirito most likely join after getting the STL Technology from Rath, Graphite Edge in AW is related to Kirito & Asuna, might be their son or something, He gave Kuroyukihime an SSS Order item which have Kirito & Asuna's Royal Family Insignia on it, Kuroyukihime's biological mother's last name is Kamura and we have an antagonist named Kamura Shikimi in SAO who is heir to Kamura company that is a rival company to Asuna's family company ] There is more too, ofcourse non of them are essential for your enjoyment of the story for either of the story, but they are nice connections/references 
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 514 Location: Poland |
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I've quite enjoyed the first arc, even though when I've read criticism I've realized I agree with much of it, but still thought it was enjoyable take on the trapped-in-a-game genre, but that second arc in that new game with flying was horrible to the point I've ended up never returning to the franchise, and I wouldn't blame anyone for hating on SAO after it. spoiler[Seriously, non-blood-related incest out of nowhere, titillating rapey scenes of main girl who gets sidelined - but we get incest imouto as a her replacement, and most bugging of all MC and others treat everything as seriously like they were still trapped in death game, while the only one trapped is Asuna? Oh, and the villain from the first game is cool guy now, as opposed to the new villain who is somehow worse because he's "unfair", despite having several thousand fewer victims then the old guy.] I've only know about later arcs some things by osmosis, but was that whole flying elves arc even necessary for anything later? Because it seems to me the whole series would be better if they retconned this whole thing out and moved straight to later arcs, which from what I've heard were much better. |
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Pedram
Posts: 83 |
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Fairy Dance Arc (flying elves) is widely recognized as one of the lowest part of the SAO series between fans and non-fans alike, and it was something that Reki Kawahara right back in 2002 and he himself admit being one of his low points, but it does have important set up and plot point for the future of the story. (specially The Seed Package which is a base for many things in the future Arcs) You can say this Arc was set up to do a lot of good things, but it end up doing it in a pretty mediocre or Meeh ways at times so the final result wasn't that good. even more so for the anime which skipped or tweaked some scene into worse version of the original. When the author write this Arc he didn't had much experience or editor to advice him, he was just writing for a small group of fans in his blog, and he mentioned later in an interview that At the end of First Arc, he had Kirito & Asuna get together and defeat the final guy and he felt as long as Kirito and Asuna are together they can do anything and have no drama or Kirito won't be feeling lost or helpless as long as Asuna is there. But he wanted for Kirito who was "The Big Hero of aincrad" to feel helpless and have a reality check that while he end up becoming a big shot in Aincrad, those weren't real power in RL and he should not be losing himself in virtual power, and the way he come up to do this, was to take Asuna away from Kirito and put both of them in a helpless situation. (He later mentioned that He dedicated the Mother's Rosario Arc to Asuna as the Main Character later to kinda make it up for her being less active in Fairy Dance Arc) As a result we see Kirito's helplessness and frustration, crying himself to sleep or waking up crying again... and we see how he was motivated and invigorated again once he was given a chance at saving Asuan through Virtual world and how he falsely believed that as long as its in a virtual world he can do anything and save Asuna again. he made many mistakes along the way that he only realize and regret at the end until it is too late. This is also why the villain of this Arc is also similar to Kirito. He is also a person drunk with the power of the virtual world, he is someone who named himself a God and feel like being a God with his admin privileges. The Final Chapter is called "Gilded Hero" or "Fake/make-belief Hero" spoiler[ It's a chapter that give 2 people a Wake up call! it show Kirito how he was wrong, he isn't really a Hero that can do anything in Virtual World, those are just borrowed power of the game and an admin can just easily take it away, he realized a lot of mistakes he made, not telling Kikouka, still using NervGear so he can't just log out and call Police as Asuna suggested and many more... he realize his arrogance and mistakes but he is not the only one drunk with the virtual power and Sugou the antagonist is as well ! so when Kayaba come and take Sugou's admin privilege again, he too realize he is nothing without his fake power and is nothing but a fake god. Kirito also realize it and had a line understanding Sugou was the same as him later in their confrontation outside of hospital.] So yeah, one of the reason for the way this arc happened is for showcasing this, which is a pretty good plot point but the execution of it could have been a lot better. There is literally a valid and nice reason for everything in this Arc, but even if you realize them, the way it all happened would leave you feeling it could have been a lot better. to very briefly mention some reply to the spoiler you write: spoiler[ Kirito and Suguha's relationship was ruined by Kirito for many years since he realize he is adopted and they no longer acted like brother and sister, Suguha at the start no longer call him Brother, but Kazuto, Kirito came out of aincrad tried to suddenly be good to her and think it will Fix it... but the plot in the show was suppose to force both of them to be true to their feeling and talk heart to heart and get back to a healthy brother and sister relationship and Suguha does at the end move on and start calling Kirito, Brother, again. Plus, people just call it "incest" but it was just a mistaken crush from Suguha's side which she also knew is wrong and was trying to run away from it and hide it for 90% of the Arc. so it was the show's intention to tell the viewers it's wrong and you are supposed to not enjoy it lol but ofcourse, the execution could be a hell lot better. The reason the players are so serious while playing Alfheim Online (2nd game) is because it's a game with a big death penalty. Kirito had the PTSD from letting his party member die, so he was serious coz of that too, then we have the fact that he was running low on time to meet Asuna, only 1 week and if he died, he would be spawned way back and would need to run again which would mean he miss the 1 week date to reach Asuna. then everyone dying would lose lots of EXP/gold/item and the Faction Leader ... if one of them died, the whole Faction City would be occupied by enemy and they have to pay Tax to enemy for a whole week and they also lose a huge sum of their Faction saving to the enemy. so you sure as hell play it seriously to not die. lol The real complain here should be why the Alfheim game is designed so bad that walking all around the map need a whole week or dying in it make you lose so much EXP/gold/item. but that's another topic and partially coz old games back in 2002 were kinda like this, like Shaiya MMORPG I used to play, I once died and lost my whole character + items I worked months on... you can google it. ] On a side note, Reki Kawahara used to base some of his Arcs loosely based on some theme of popular classics, like Fairy Dance Arc borrow many elements and theme from Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream. King Oberon and Queen Titania, King Oberon's monster underlings and how he don't value feeling and emotions and see them as it's plaything by using magic/charm to change people's emotions and the Forbidden and mistaken love that happens in it. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Pedram already commented at length on this, so I'll just clarify further that the setting of the Fairy Dance arc becomes the "base" online setting for the rest of the story: • The new scenes in the movie Extra Edition take place there • The next arc (Gun Gale Online) starts from and finishes there, and shows the side characters in that setting during their brief appearances. • The second arc after it (Soulcalibur) takes places entirely in Alfheim • The online component of the third arc after it (Mother's Rosario) takes place in the Aincrad expansion for Alfheim. • A few scenes in the fourth following Arc (Alicization) take place there There's also the matter of how a certain thing introduced in its last two episodes enables the existence of other virtual settings in the story, especially the setting of GGO. Really, the Fairy Dance arc sets up and supports everything that follows, so it's not skippable. |
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DerekL1963
 Subscriber Posts: 1117 Location: Puget Sound |
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I would disagree. While many things that happen after are set in Alfheim... Understanding those things doesn't require significant knowledge of the world, plot, or new characters introduced in that arc beyond "flying elves and magic" and "there's a replica of Aincrad in there". The plot of Fairy Dance is driven by Sugo/Oberon, the Quest at the World Tree, and the rivalry/warfare between the Elven races - none of which are relevant after the end of the arc. That is, you can literally explain everything anyone needs to know about the setting and events of Fairy Dance in a sentence or two. |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 514 Location: Poland |
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From what you've wrote, there doesn't seem to be anything important from that arc except a) "Alfheim exists" which is how we were introduced to it in the first place anyway, b) some later characters had cameos in it, which is barely important, c) and the last part is still the kind of sci-fi nonsense that can be introduced in whatever way author desires. I've always seen the SAO's explanations for its "trapped in game" thing as bunch of nonsense that was necessary to establish the setting, but was barely believable and coherent, and I don't think explanation for other virtual settings need to be any better then "some sci-fi magic happened", which is what it basically was anyway if I remember correctly those episodes spoiler[First villain guy gives him some world seeds or something IIRC?]. It would also make much more sense if people are playing the next 3D immersion game when spoiler[some victims of 9/11 scale of terrorist attack on previous version aren't still trapped in previous game and no one knows how to save them]. DerekL1963 is more convincing here. Also, if author wanted to give Kirito some growth as spoiler[rising up from helplessness after being used to be a hero] , it was real bad way to do it, as not only he almost immediately spoiler[become super good player despite being late to the game, but if he was separated from his girlfriend and they both had to fight alone each their own war, we could've dual protagonist setup with character progression for both of them, instead of her being relegated to damsel in tentacled distress.] |
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Pedram
Posts: 83 |
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Are you guys talking about Fairy Dance being "skipped" or being "changed"
Coz the discussion was about it being skipped. if it was just skipped then a lot of things would not make sense and are based on Fairy Dance Arc as mentioned before. Key Mentioned them all very briefly, but the point is, everything in the future of the story is somehow related to this Arc, if you are talking about this Arc being changed, then yeah, if we skip Fairy Dance Arc and instead give it a couple of Episode of new replacement Arc to include everything important from Fairy Dance Arc... then it can work. but then all the future volumes of the story also need to be changed and tweaked to have the references and events take the new changes into account... a huge domino effect change happens from changing ALO Arc, so the question come that "why" and "is it worth it" ? Specially so when in japan there isn't any big problem with the Fairy Dance Arc, it might not be a fan favorite but it isn't any big stain that they want to remove lol moreover as I mentioned, Fairy Dance Arc have a lot of it's own purposes and goals, it might not had a good execution, but it had it's own plot and job, it had it's own great or fan favorite moments too. I remember one of the very emotional and fan fanvorite scenes both in japan and even western was the scene of Kirito desperately fighting in the World tree raid to go up and reach asuna while remembering bits of memory of his time with Asuna but end up failing and dying despite his crazy struggle. the reactions for that episode was off the roof. So yeah, It's not a skippable Arc, but it can be replaced with a couple of episodes to cover important detail like Kikouka introduction & Fate of Kayaba & Seed Package & A new Base Game to replace ALO as main base for the cast & Yanai/Research and America connection plot & many more things it need to establish. but such a change did not happen coz Fairy Dance in japan isn't considered a stein in the series that need to be changed and it was considered acceptable as it is.
This is an explained plot point in the story tho, it explained that only Full Dive VRMMORPG that was released in this time was this 1 single game... and we know the reason coz it was spoiler[ a re-skinned/tweaked game made from SAO Aincrad and a plot for Sugou's experimentation,] the story explain that no other company was willing to invest time and money into creating a new Full Dive VRMMORPG while the SAO situation was still not resolved, this damaging the Full Dive MMORPG market is mentioned in the story and the reason Kirito release "The Seed Package" for free in the net to let everyone easily use a free open source game engine to create games and reinvigorate the Full Dive Market, and this is also why in next Arc, 1.5 years later, so many new MMORPG are created by then and also why Kirito feel responsible to investigate the GGO incident in next Arc since he feel responsible for releasing The Seed Package. (Reminder, that most of those MMORPG games in next Arc are made by The Seed and 1.5 years after Fairy Dance Arc and SAO incident is resolved)
Isn't this literally what I said tho ? The goals of the Arc was these but the execution was not good and could be a lot better ? I already went in length explaining this, Reki wanted to do this but he was still not that experienced and he came up with this way which was not really good and could be improved a lot, in fact, In an interview in 2013 or so Reki Kawahara himself mentioned about this Arc and Asuna's situation, he mentioned that if it was him now, he would have written it differently and he said, that he think if it was some Hollywood quality movie instead, (Yes, he literally said it as a positive as if Hollywood quality is very high lmao) they probably would make Asuna escape by herself and have her own active battle parallel to kirito in this Arc. Reminder this Arc was written in ~2002 by a someone without a single official work in his name and no official writing experience. On a side note, it was not about Kirito "raising up from helplessness after being used to be a hero" rather "be forced to realize his in-game power is not real and not lose himself in the false sense of powerfulness that the VR game can give people" this plot is later re-visited many time in later Arcs by other people too, also spoiler[ Kirito joined late in the game but he was basically cheating, coz the Alfheim game was a re-skinned Aincrad using same database to sneakly transfer some victim from Aincrad into this game, Kirito was using his 2 years old account in a game that was not 2 years old, so he was very strong. the real helplessness of Kirito was in real world + after he meet Sugou/Oberon in-game] but anyway I already explained that in my previous comment. |
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