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Top Gun wrote:

Unculturedman wrote:

I think the problem is with Bleach, specifically. The series had an interesting hook, sense of style and cool factor, but it lacks any kind of identity, purpose or general intent behind the story itself. Unlike many other battle shonen, Bleach quickly becomes exclusively about tons of characters engaging in fights repeatedly with not much else going on. After a while it becomes tiresome for some people who aren’t interested in the power system and character abilities or aren’t invested in much of the massive cast. This is probably the main reason for declining popularity and why the series is so divisive.

One of the several excellent long-form video pieces out there on Bleach's downfall made the point that a lot of the problem is Ichigo as a character and his motivations. Namely...he doesn't have any. Just look at the other two members of the old Big Three. As we've heard literally tens of thousands of times, Luffy wants to find the One Piece and be the Pirate King, because to him it represents absolute freedom. Naruto wanted to become Hokage to earn the respect of the village that had been so cruelly denied to him as a child. Meanwhile Ichigo wants...what, exactly? Sure, he wants to protect his friends, but that's a given; literally every shonen protagonist worth their salt wants that. He doesn't have any sort of driving ambition, no core desire, so as a result he almost drifts through his own story, merely reacting to external events instead of creating his own. And that was fine enough for the Soul Society arc, since that arc was great enough to carry the story, but once you get past it and Ichigo still doesn't do much of anything, the series starts to feel very flat very quickly.

It's funny you mention that because I think that was intentional. Characters constantly point this out. Rukia points it out in like episode 2-3 and his sense of responsibility and towards the dead, his family and his friends is established early on. Hell at the end of the Arrancar arc Aizen even criticises him and says that Ichigo doesn't have a reason to fight other than his sense of responsibility and that its why he won't be able to defeat him. I actually found it really interesting that they made that such a big part of his character and that in and of itself makes him interesting.

I'd also push back on the idea that the Arrancar arc is bad. Sure after they go to Hueco Mundo it has the same structure as the Soul Society arc. And also them entering Hueco Mundo until Rukia fight with the 9th Arrancar is slow and dull, but the rest of the arc moves at a decent pace, its got some interest thematic depth when it comes to Ulqiorra finally coming to understand humans and the finale has some really well put together reveals and ends quite well. I think its mostly the filler and the fact that I think it works better when binged then when consuming it weakly that made people dislike that arc so much

lossthief wrote:

Eh, my beef with the Fullbringer storyline has nothing to do with it being associated with filler - it's that it started off with a lot of promising ideas, then just sort of abandoned those ideas to bring back the Soul Reaper characters. The back half of the arc just turns into the most popular characters from past arcs fighting a slew of characters we only barely got to know (or didn't know at all, in some cases). There's all this buildup about whether or not Ichigo can really trust the Soul Society or if he might have reason to rebel against them like Ginjo, only for him to just shrug off the question and never bring it up again. Chad is teased to be an important character since it's revealed his powers are that of a Fullbringer, and then he plays no role in the later fights and has to be rescued from Tsukishima's brainwashing.

And that's basically my problem with post-Soul Society Bleach at large. It'll start off great, have a bunch of new ideas and characters that you think will get a chance to be explored, and then everything devolves back to one-on-one fights between the Soul Reaper cast and whoever the new enemy is. And once those fights stop being entertaining, there's not left to really care about.

Out Of Curiosity, what do you think of TWBY arc? I didn’t read the manga, just curious.

Fullbring always felt like it was rushed toward the end, and I feel like Ginjo's backstory being revealed in the novels that came out after the manga ended kind of gives credence to that. Also I'm pretty sure Kubo squeezed like 4 different Fullbringer backstories into a single chapter, it's been a long time since I read the arc in the manga.

I'm going through it again right now in the anime though, and it's definitely the better version as it fleshes things out a bit more. Episode 357 for example, which I just finished, is basically a Chad and Orihime focused episode, and almost none of it was in the manga. They even get to battle Tsukishima for a bit toward the end.

But yeah, I have similar criticisms with the Shinigami showing up near the end (minus Rukia and Renji as they're main cast). I thought the arc was great up until that point, but they brought it down a bit since it took the spotlight away from characters like Chad and Orihime to a lesser extent. The final episode, though it's technically not final anymore, is still really good however.

I agree with some of the posters here that Fullbringer arc wasn't really that bad. It actually developed Ichigo's character and there was a kind of cool freshness to it with Ichigo having to redevelop his powers.

The Hueco Mundo arc was just the whole Soul Society arc recycled but executed worse. Probably the worst thing about the arc was how poorly Orihime was handled. The Hueco Mundo arc revealed her powers to be potentially godlike, yet when Ichigo was dying at her feet after losing to Ulquiorra instead of finally unleashing the full extent of her powers in a shonen-like power up scene that they had been building towards that whole arc, Orihime instead cries out for the dying Ichigo to save her. And so Ichigo powers up and beats Ulquiorra. Orihime friggin' went backwards in her character development. Talk about a let down. And then the whole final showdown arc with Aizen was stretched out so much due to every character having to get their moment in the spotlight.

db999 wrote:

It's funny you mention that because I think that was intentional. Characters constantly point this out. Rukia points it out in like episode 2-3 and his sense of responsibility and towards the dead, his family and his friends is established early on. Hell at the end of the Arrancar arc Aizen even criticises him and says that Ichigo doesn't have a reason to fight other than his sense of responsibility and that its why he won't be able to defeat him. I actually found it really interesting that they made that such a big part of his character and that in and of itself makes him interesting.

I don't think Ichigo necessarily needed a Hokage-style goal, but he definitely needed some sort of motivation that kept him feeling proactive in the overall plot. As-is, after every big arc he goes back home with whatever new powers he developed and just goes back to business as usual until some new villain shows up and forces him back into a big conflict. It gave the impression that while he wasn't unhappy with his duties as a Soul Reaper, he also wasn't terribly interested in developing them. Paired with ground-level hollows and human spirits becoming all but meaningless, so it seemed like he only ever utilized his powers when a new army of villains stormed into town.

That's actually why I was so interested in the Fullbringer story to begin with. It had Ichigo actively wanting to regain his powers and his connection to Soul Society and the loved ones he had over there. spoiler[Which was why it was all the more disappointing in TYBW when we catch up with him and he's been doing the same thing he did after Soul Society. No changes or developments, hasn't taken on more responsibilities or been working with the Vizard or even had a talk with his dad about his secret history as a Soul Reaper.]

Does anyone else feel like this series lacks genuine emotional weight? Plenty of characters died throughout the series, but because of the incredibly bloated cast and poor characterization of even our main heroes, I couldn’t even begin to care about any of them. This is extremely rare for me and shonen battle manga of that generation, the best of which were generally excellent at creating a cohesive world that fostered the development of its cast in a very emotionally resonant way to create meaningful themes and a message. This feeling and intention is just absent in Bleach for seemingly no solid reason other than the fact that Kubo is a wonderful artist, and had some neat ideas, but desperately needed a partner to help him pen the story out. As a result I find Bleach one of the worst (major) shonen battle series of its time, especially when you compare it to its hard hitting contemporaries and predecessors.

Unculturedman wrote:

Does anyone else feel like this series lacks genuine emotional weight?

I look at it like this: If you only watch it through the Soul Society arc, then it's pretty good -- I would give it a 9/11 (Very Good). After that? FUHGETTABOUTIT.

The first signs of popularity waning for Bleach was around 2010, when the Fake Karakura Town storyline begins. Sales fell around 30%, but the series was at a peak right before, so the rest of the Arrancar arc still did great numbers. Of course, the transitional arc begins afterwards, and things kind of still fall and don't stabilize to the point that the old anime ending wasn't surprising.

I saw somebody recently call Bleach wrestling, which I get. If you're not interested in the series of one-on-ones, it's probably not gonna do much for you. I mean, something like Mayuri VS Szayelaporro was fantastic, but you could certainly criticize it for not moving the story along beyond a domino-piece enemy dying. I would say it's fairly obvious when reading that thematically tieing every character interaction to the story was not high on Kubo's priorities, but the clash of powerful, singular voices and personalities. Even the various abilities, which get plenty of lipservice, are merely window dressing for two guys to argue about the meaning of their existence. It's all in service of those character moments, which you see little of in something like Naruto. It's been a long time since I've read it, but that series was not very personable in how it flowed. The plot drove and moved characters into action; their inner workings, if ever explored, were surface level (somebody I loved died, I was bullied, etc.). I have a distinct memory of rolling my eyes at the Sakura and Sasori fight and how overwrought it was portrayed as.

Nonaka Machine Gun B wrote:

The first signs of popularity waning for Bleach was around 2010, when the Fake Karakura Town storyline begins. Sales fell around 30%, but the series was at a peak right before, so the rest of the Arrancar arc still did great numbers. Of course, the transitional arc begins afterwards, and things kind of still fall and don't stabilize to the point that the old anime ending wasn't surprising.

I saw somebody recently call Bleach wrestling, which I get. If you're not interested in the series of one-on-ones, it's probably not gonna do much for you. I mean, something like Mayuri VS Szayelaporro was fantastic, but you could certainly criticize it for not moving the story along beyond a domino-piece enemy dying. I would say it's fairly obvious when reading that thematically tieing every character interaction to the story was not high on Kubo's priorities, but the clash of powerful, singular voices and personalities. Even the various abilities, which get plenty of lipservice, are merely window dressing for two guys to argue about the meaning of their existence. It's all in service of those character moments, which you see little of in something like Naruto. It's been a long time since I've read it, but that series was not very personable in how it flowed. The plot drove and moved characters into action; their inner workings, if ever explored, were surface level (somebody I loved died, I was bullied, etc.). I have a distinct memory of rolling my eyes at the Sakura and Sasori fight and how overwrought it was portrayed as.

I honestly could not disagree more with this. If what you’re suggesting is the point of Bleach, a series of shallow underexplored character conflicts with no cohesive theme, then yes, I would agree. The Mayuri fight in question I found laughably pretentious, as is the majority of the series. Naruto on the other hand, has a powerful unifying theme that permeates through the work. The entirety of the main plot, and almost every backstory is in service of this theme, and of developing the world itself. I don’t know how that could be seen as surface level at all. The plot and characters are woven together to create a sincere theme, something I feel is virtually nonexistent in Bleach. As you say, that may not be the point, but it certainly puts me off and makes it incredibly difficult for me to care about anyone or anything in the series.

The cohesive theme of Bleach is defying fate, crushing destiny, and essentially living life on your terms. This throughline is the connective tissue of virtually everything that happens in the story. Ichigo's desire to protect his friends isn't some hero's rallying cry; he spent years under the impression he killed his mother and to him, it signified loss of control and helplessness. Feeling like he can't do anything is hell to him. All of his big scenes showcase him in a helpless state, and the payoff is his resolve. Watching Byakuya take Rukia back while lying down in the rain; getting stomped by both Yammy and Grimmjow(plus the literal lack of control of his Hollow form); being tormented by the Fullbringers to the point he thinks Urahara and his own father stabbed him. During the Lost Agent arc, Chad comments that Ichigo's earliest stage of his Fullbring is reminiscent of his Soul Reaper powers because that's the only way Ichigo knows how to protect people, or even be. The bonus chapter, Chapter 0, spells out everything about Ichigo's frustration with feeling like he can't do anything.

This line of thought can be seen everywhere. Aizen does everything he does because spoiler[he cannot stand the laws of the world as set by the Soul King]; the Hogyoku breaks the boundaries between Soul Reapers and Hollows because the limiters of growth for both frustrate him(on top of the fact his potential for growth is so much greater than everyone else's; Ichigo posits at the end of their battle the loneliness of it all). Ikkaku won't pursue captain status or reveal his Bankai at Renji's behest because he wants to stay close to Kenpachi. Kon was deemed a failed experiment and sentenced to die when he hadn't done anything except for what he was created to do. Ginjo felt gyp'd by Ukitake. Byakuya almost let Rukia die to uphold codes he didn't necessarily believe in, or at the very least because of his nobility thought he couldn't question. All these stories are about people escaping from under the thumb of someone or something else.

In the end, I never thought Kubo didn’t have ideas, quite the opposite, he had far too many. And my biggest criticism is simply his poor writing. The series has far, far too many characters for its relatively small scope, and too many introduced all at once. I don’t really care if Bleach has themes or not because the characters do not compel me to care. Ichigo’s character arc is both simultaneously very simple and very messy, and absolutely did not require 74 volumes to tell. The main and supporting cast, including the villains, simply exist for the sake of it being a long shonen battle manga and to have countless, empty, uninteresting fights. Why should I care about Kon, Ginjo, Gin, The Vizoreds, or any of these other terrible characters? The character and world/setting development is extremely poor in Bleach. Also Kubo never addresses these supposed themes in any meaningful way. Ichigo is sad because he feels powerless? Boom, magic sword gives him his powers back and now he’s confident again. Vizoreds had their lives and positions taken from them, boom they’re back in Soul Society’s good graces as captains again after a couple years like nothing happens. Why should I care about Ikkaku’s plight when nothing really bad happens to him as a result of these annoying laws? I seriously struggle to care about anything that happens because the characters that populate this series and the world they inhabit are very poorly conceived. Kubo is just not a good writer at all.

Nobody is here to convince you to like or care about the series dude, it's very clear from your posts that you heavily dislike it. A lot of us are just happy to have the anime finally come back after a decade of waiting, and for us, that's what we care about.

The real question in the face of Bleach's return and finale; (and even the hardcore manga experts won't know the answer to this one) Will the music hit? We all know Bleach's most popular and iconic moments and those moments came with the music that drove the hype of those moments, from every bankai to every transformation. The problem now is, it's been a decade and musical sensibilities have drastically changed since then. Will Bleach feel as amazing and exciting as it used to? Will it feel dated and cringey with electric guitar and rock beats? Or will it feel completely alien trying to adapt to current day musical trends?

lossthief wrote:

Eh, my beef with the Fullbringer storyline has nothing to do with it being associated with filler - it's that it started off with a lot of promising ideas, then just sort of abandoned those ideas to bring back the Soul Reaper characters. The back half of the arc just turns into the most popular characters from past arcs fighting a slew of characters we only barely got to know (or didn't know at all, in some cases). There's all this buildup about whether or not Ichigo can really trust the Soul Society or if he might have reason to rebel against them like Ginjo, only for him to just shrug off the question and never bring it up again. Chad is teased to be an important character since it's revealed his powers are that of a Fullbringer, and then he plays no role in the later fights and has to be rescued from Tsukishima's brainwashing.

And that's basically my problem with post-Soul Society Bleach at large. It'll start off great, have a bunch of new ideas and characters that you think will get a chance to be explored, and then everything devolves back to one-on-one fights between the Soul Reaper cast and whoever the new enemy is. And once those fights stop being entertaining, there's not left to really care about.

That's definitely a large part of it in that the story has a problem with trying to give everyone a spotlight and it just grinds things to a halt. Having a main focus is fine as the main characters are basically Ichigo, Rukia, Orihime, Chad, and Ishida but then the story proceeds to BALLOON everything by shoving everyone in over and over and it results in a ton of bloat, especially with some overall pretty minor characters.

As such, it even leaves a lot of the main characters to not have proper plot threads resolved or expanded upon. Like Orihime looked like she was going somewhere but there are so many distractions during the Arrancar arc that nothing comes of the buildup made about her powers or what they could lead to. Not everyone needs to have a spotlight, not everyone needs their own focus, sometimes people can just remain supporting characters. Leave that kind of stuff to fandom.

thedarkemissary wrote:

Will it feel dated and cringey with electric guitar and rock beats?

I would argue that Number One always felt a bit cringey. The cheesiness was part of the joy of it, though.

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