Forum - View topicKUROSUFAIYAH
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Eaaaaahhh.. okay, you got me on the repetition thing. Conan and KITH are certainly repetitive.
On the other hand, I happen to think Conan's recurring jokes are funnier than Chiyo getting hit in the head with something, and I think a lot of people will agree with me that something like Conan is a bit more sophisticated than Azudai. That's where it all boils down to taste, though. -Zac |
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ex_mutants
Posts: 54 |
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That was my whole problem with the feature, there was no counterpoint. It was just a discussion between people who have similar limited experiences about certain topics (and I’m assuming that's why you all are acquaintances because you all share one or several things in common, like say viewpoints). Most of us are going to have limited view of the fandom picture, but at least have some people who have a different limited views so if you start adding it up you get a better glimpse of the whole picture. BTW, if we judged everything in anime by the weird minority of fans that like titles for totally different reasons then the majority, then all anime would be considered to be liked by neurotic, obsessed, perverts. A “professional journalist” is supposed to be objective and impartial, regardless of how hyper-exposed one has been on a subject. I find it dismaying that only one strong viewpoint is really only presented on such a heavily visited “news” site. |
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The Spatula
 Posts: 163 |
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Of course, this particular feature is not really what one would consider "news" - it is simply a column that contains the opinions of some of the people in the site [as evidenced by the small print at the bottom]. I keep this in mind when I venture to anything not on the front page; most people seem to forget this fact when they click on the features or the reviews on the right-hand column. Everything up to the point of the Azumanga discussion was interesting - after that, it felt like people were simply there to crucify a much debated series. That part of the discussion would've been far more interesting if there were a dissenting opinion. Okay, okay, you guys don't like Azumanga Daioh - I got that after the first two responses. Everything else was just beating a dead horse. ^^; I would also like to see the opinions of people who don't work on the site to lead to more spirited discussions and alternate opinions. I already have a good idea of what the reviewers here like and don't like. |
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ex_mutants
Posts: 54 |
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Yeah, I shouldn’t hold the opinion/editorial stuff to the same standards as news, but I do get annoyed how they only go into one viewpoint and considering this site is a potential gateway for a lot of people new to anime, I think it’s a disservice that they aren’t being properly informed about Anime. Anime fandom has a lot of “bad habits” and they are only going to continue, if everyone new coming in isn’t properly educated. But you hit the nail on the head on what has really been bothering me about the site, after reading through the opinions of these “pundits” you can get a good idea where they’ll go on a given subject. You need good debate to really make things interesting and bring out the various sides on a given issue. |
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microlith
Posts: 2 |
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No one at ANN should in any way pretend that this article does not affect their reputation. It's already lowered my opinion, and those of several others, not just of ANN but of each of the people involved in this "lynching."
Sure they don't like Azumanga. But giving a soapbox to people who sit and launch insults left and right at fans of a show simply because they don't like it is crap. This wasn't a debate. It wasn't even journalism or even remotely professionalism. This was a asinine, mean-spirited crap-flinging contest whose victims were the fans of a show, for no other reason than being fans. Of course it's things like this that make me normally never come to ANN. |
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charite
Posts: 12 Location: Denmark |
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I Have to agree with microlith, this was not a discussion, it was a mob beating up Azumanga, each having his/her turn at insulting it. There was no variation in opinion and a gross intolerance towards a series that do have it share of fans, Who were all, without excption, insulted and labeled as freaks, even within the anime community.
While that may not represent the opinions of ANN in genereal, someone must have chosen to have this "debate" on the front page, and since ANN uses the label "most trusted anime news source", they must also be aware af how much this affects people, who based on the this now thinks Azumanga is nothing more then a pointless lolita anime that only are worth buying if you love to watch pre-teens. That the persons debating initiates it by adding both professional journalism and Japanese Studies to their list of credabilities makes it even worse, as it actually seems like they are forming their oppinions based on such, and not just a common dislike for the show. I dont think this article is worth the ANN standard, since it can hardly be any more narrowminded then this. |
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Delthayre
 Posts: 414 Location: One of the good United States |
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S'aright, I was just trying to lighten the mood a little, hence the whimsical smiley. I'm not good at lightening moods. I think we understand that this was an opinion piece that unfortunately lacked an adequate diversity of opinions. But being angry at people having and expressing opinions is ridiculous. You can reject a persons's opinion, but you can hardly say they shouldn't express it. Did the AzuDai discussions go past the necessary amount of discussion? I'll admit I'm not invested or interested enough to judge. But I think taking this as a black mark on ANN is a bit much. All that was represented in the article was the views of three ANN columnists and a message board gadfly (I'm on a kick with that word). That's less than a fifth of the staff combined with an ideterminately small portion of the message board community. I realize that some people's sensibilities have been offended, but ultimately, reasonable people can disagree. I hardly thing there's reason to make such dramatic statements regarding ANN's intergrity over this.
Simply re-iterating a point. Don't shoot the messenger.
Note the bolded text, which clearly indicates that Zac does 1) acknowledge that his previous statements on the message boards constituted an over-the-top generalization, and 2) Not all fans of AzuDai are guys with a lolita complex. Odd, I suddenly feel like a second-rate Bob Somerby. |
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charite
Posts: 12 Location: Denmark |
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"The views and opinions expressed in KUROSUFAIYAH! are solely those of the participants and do not necessarily represent the views of Anime News Network or its sponsors."
It's a nice disclaimer, but this article not just someone bashing a show in the forums, its something placed up front, where everybody will notice it, a feature of ANN and by people who makes a point of who they are and their educational background. "Brian: uber-1337 fansub nerds who crossplay as the characters and quote their lame japanese catch-phrases and whatnot. " That is line I would have expected to see in some IRC channel, where people often tend to be quite intolerent towards other oppinions then their own. Maybe ANN should look into what they actually put up as articles, because just pasting a disclaimer in the end do not by magic, convert private bashing into something that is worth reading. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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"I Have to agree with microlith, this was not a discussion, it was a mob beating up Azumanga, each having his/her turn at insulting it. There was no variation in opinion and a gross intolerance towards a series that do have it share of fans, Who were all, without excption, insulted and labeled as freaks, even within the anime community."
Okay, okay. You are all mostly correct. This column was WAY too one-sided and I have already corrected that problem. The next Kurosufaiyah will feature myself, one other ANN columnist, a professional ANN outsider and one fan. I will go out of my way to find people with opposing viewpoints, so we can have a more spirited discussion. That having been said, I am really upset that a whole lot of you seem to just be skipping over the fact that I said this: "I said that Azudai is for creepy old men with lolita complexes. I did not say pedophiles. Those are two different things. Furthermore, that statement was hyperbole; obviously not everyone who watches the show is a creepy old man with a loli complex. I know plenty of well-adjusted guys who like the show and don't lust after the little girls in it." If you fall in to this category, which I assume most of you do, then why would you get upset? This statement clearly points out that there are plenty (if not the majority) of Azudai fans that are well-adjusted. The others, and I think you will agree, are not. They're creepy. I also happen to think that in order to sell units of an obscure Japanese show, ADV's core market is those guys. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but I was in no way insulting the people who are perfectly well-adjusted except to say that I disagree with their senses of humor. I am truly sorry for upsetting some of you, but I think a lot of you are purposefully omitting the one part of my statement that says, very clearly, not all Azudai fans are like this, in order to remain upset and offended. The guy above who says that fans are "without exception are insulted and labeled as freaks". Except, friend, there IS a big exception in there. It's there. Go back and read the column again. Do not misrepresent the facts, please. Furthermore, attacking ANN for this is very silly. That's like sending hate mail to 20th Century Fox because you disagree with the commentary tracks on their DVDs, which are clearly labeled as not being the viewpoint of the parent company. I remind you all that Kuro is clearly labeled as not being the viewpoint of ANN. Also, please respond to these points. Many of you, when presented with the counter opinion and facts, will simply ignore those facts and continue to be upset and argue on as though they were never said. This is ridiculous behavoir and I expect more out of a bunch of people demanding that we answer for our statements. It goes both ways. I see Charite has already decided to simply not respond to my above statement, already pointed out by someone else. This is unacceptable. If you expect me to come in and explain myself, I have every right to expect you to do the same. -Zac |
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charite
Posts: 12 Location: Denmark |
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I am sorry, Zac, if you felt that it was directed towards you alone, you were the only one who did, in some way, giving Azumanga fans a chance of being normal people.
But just look at Bamboo's comment above and you do yourself continue with insulting the people who finds Azumanga funny, both in the article and your reply's here. I would say that it is one thing to vent ones opinion, like we do it here, in a forum, where most people knows the difference. But it is a completely different to take four people and turn it into an article on the front. I don't really care about what it is that gets this kind of treatment, but a professional journalist should know that one opinion do not make a fair debate on any subject, no matter how many versions you have. And again, no matter how many disclaimer labels you paste on the article (this one neatly in the end, so that that people do not have to worry about it before they have formed an opinion based on the contains), it is still something ANN has promoted by a link on the front, so it gains a lot of power from that is something a professional journalist should not be unaware of. That is why I think that it is not an article this is ANN worthy and that it was a mistake to give it a such dominating spot. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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"If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but I was in no way insulting the people who are perfectly well-adjusted except to say that I disagree with their senses of humor."
This was poory worded. I do not think that my disagreement with their senses of humor is an insult. If you are that sensitive then maybe you should reconsider what you read online. If any disagreement is insulting to you, then it is you who has problems, not me. I'm sorry if that upsets you but it's the truth. I'm also sorry that you don't seem to think that the column had any business being on ANN. Kurosufaiyah will continue, although it will be modified to include more disparate viewpoints. If you are this easily upset, especially after so many points have been made, then I suggest you do not read it. Every newspaper has an op/ed column. Look at it that way. They frequently take heat for the columns they publish, many of them strikingly more inflammatory than this one. Would you then say that a column you disagree with has no place in the newspaper? Are you aware of what the first amendment allows us? I certainly am. I also respect that newspaper's right to publish any viewpoint they please. The column isn't for everyone, after all. -Zac |
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weirdofu
Posts: 34 |
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Well, I guess I've kind of cooled down after reading about how heated everyone else has been, so hopefully I will make more sense now than 20 minutes ago.
Firstly, I think the KUROSUFAIYAH was a very good idea. It has alot of potential and should continue as it is. I have to admit that Zac does a good job and from the looks of it, my assumption only, he may have already toned down the conversation a little through editting. Secondly, I will follow in everyone else's foot step and say that the main reason I'm here is because of the Azumanga comments, which even though was probably made without much research or knowledge of the anime, was really not something I would have thought to hear in a debate that had gone fairly civil and rational to that point. Ironically, to understand Azumanga, one has to first have somewhat of a grasp on Japanese culture, which makes Rebecca's statement even more ironic and strange. I guess a degree in Japanese Studies does not require you to think like a Japanese. Personally, I am quite open to all sorts of humor, varying styles as well. Being an asian, I find that the United States has the widest range and types of humor in the world, and I think that is something to be proud of. And personally, I feel that people who doesn't find azumanga offending are just too strung up on political correctness. Especially the breast joke, since ironic to say, if my information is correct, Azumanag was created by a female author who didn't give a damn about the male audience. Funny enough, coming into this I had a shit load of things to say, but I guess words elude me at this point, since I guess everyone else has said everything. I guess alot of the long winded arguments and comments are just not meant to be used in a forum environment. I'm open to comments and arguments that are rational and factual, yet I am very irritated with highly biased, opinionated comments that are based on nothing but a strong personal bias. And personally, alot of the arguments about why and how a series is popular is based on the latter, which irritates me quite alot. |
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Sklathill
Posts: 24 |
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Well...you don't really say WHY these well-adjusted guys like the show. We're left to believe that they like it because of the repetitive jokes and boobie humor that you mention. A dissenting opinion would have been great not because it's dissenting, but because then he or she'd be able to talk about alternative ways of looking at the subject in a way that this group did not. Me, I would have worked on the idea of pacing on low and high levels playing with our sensibilities. While the reader is made immediately familiar with a set group, there are all these little things that make me do a double take, that make me say, "WHOA, what was THAT?" Chiyo is this little genius girl that seems to get along with everybody quite nicely and then...WHOA, she has an evil streak in her. That threw me for a loop. Or Osaka surprising everyone when she's insanely quick at a word association game. At times we can be lulled into a sense of security about our understanding of the characters then...BOOM! Another Osaka joke... spoiler[One of my favorite jokes is when Osaka warns Kagura of the power of the Tsukkomi killing people. A pause, then... Kagura: Really!? (Honto ka!?) Osaka: No way... (Usoya...) ] Besides Osaka playing with Kagura's understanding of her, it plays with the reader's understanding of the two. I also happen to find the aesthetic of the dialogue really appealing in this bit... In any case, thanks, Zac, for addressing the issue by bringing in an outside fan. Since Crossfires look to be taking on multiple subjects, will the outside fan be brought in on only the one relevant segment? Or multiple fans for multiple segments? |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4474 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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Erm... you may not be aware of this, but, as far as I know, Brian (LordByronius) has no official capacity at ANN, so they already have "outside fan" involvement, not that I had any issues with this installment of KUROSUFAIYAH. |
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Sklathill
Posts: 24 |
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Sorry, I meant Zac looking specifically for outside fans of differing viewpoints.
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