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Hey, Answerman! [2007-09-07]


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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:26 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
How much do you know about how research grants are funded? Due to the catastrophe brought by Nazi eugenics, such research plans never get approved and funded nowadays (no one dares to propose one anyway, for doing so would destroy his/her career for sure) because of their political incorrectness.
Hence why I don't place a great deal of stock in scientific studies. This and the fact they have a tendency to be revised and changed constantly due to new information.

Before we had man-made global warming, it was Ice Age: Part Two. Now, if I'm remembering correctly, the scientists are claiming that man is causing global warming that will, through a series of environmental alterations, cause another ice age.

An issue of both political and scientific contention is Darwin's theory of evolution. If anyone is bold enough to try and peer review any scientific study that so much as questions the theory even slightly, they will be driven from their position and denegrated as some sort of religious nut, regardless of how logical their reasoning. Then there's stem cells and all the mess that debate's caused.

But hey, what do I know? I've already been brushed aside as "stupid" because I don't believe everything a scientist says is true. It's not like they're ever wrong about things. Rolling Eyes
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SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 468
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:42 am Reply with quote
ArielTsuki wrote:

The industry IS actually doing what you think. If anything, titles that have mainstream appeal do get licensed first and have the most publicity. For example in the US, Naruto is a monster franchise right now, prolly on par with the popularity of Dragonball Z 8-10 years ago. If you notice, the mainstream titles usually get a hefty amount of the pie. So it's not unusual that the industry will cater to the niche fans next, although, backing a niche title has a much higher probability of failure. At best, it's a miss or hit. I mean people complained about the emerging popularity of BL (boys' love) genre in America, but all it did was make it bring more fans or whatnot. Although I'm waiting for the real opponent of them to come forth soon. Maybe it'll break the misconception that anime is not for kids but for anyone. It's a medium on it's own.


Comments about Kodomo no Jikan aside (while it may not fit actual descriptions of child pornography, making you right, it does cater to part of that creepy market which can make the fandom look bad) I never intended to say that the Industry isn't out to make a profit, if that's how you interpreted it. It was the original fan who answered Zac's question who seemed not to grasp this measure. I do have some problems with how the industry acts at times (the seemingly whiny comments about not making enough profit ...) they are n the right track. You and I are in agreement on this.

Ningensei wrote:
With regards to the fanfiction discussion going on right now, I have a few questions.

Now, I have never read fanfiction anime related or otherwise, nor do I think I will ever want to. As a result of this, my knowledge on the subject is quite limited. So, my question is, what is the big deal with fan fiction? Why do people like to read it and I guess to a further extent write it?


I think this is an excellent question because I can also explain part of why I don't like it.

I think that it doesn't grow from a people will read/I can write; I would argue its the other way around. Perhaps now, different from my first exposures to it about a decade ago, it might be circular in that people know about it and read it/I can write it. I wrote some fanfiction, poorly, as I believe I mentioned earlier in the thread. Some of it might still be on the net; I'm not sure it's been so long. When I started writing it, I wanted to look into writing as a career (about the same time I was interested in journalism) and this was a means for me to get more practice. Pretty much the same explanation a lot of people have used in this thread and elsewhere.

And, ironically, this is where I see my issue with a lot of fanfiction writers and readers. For those who are writing to make improvements on their own style - are you actually making improvements? Are you treating each work, no matter if you feel it's utter crap or it's your personal opus, as an attempt at a professional submission? That's a lot of what I see; people who want to work on their writing by producing and posting the same bad writing they want to improve. Many are rife with grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors that I would imagine immediately have your manuscript scrapped in a professional environment. Fanfic has become a wank-session for an author to spill out crap using someone else's work, call it progress at work, then continue on, probably repeating many of the same mistakes.

Ningensei wrote:
I know personally that I am not interested in reading something if it is not written and released by the original creators. Whether it's a Harry Potter or Star Trek fanfiction to any anime series I just don't understand to why someone would want to read something if it is not "real" and just written by fans. What's the appeal? Imagining your favorite characters doing things they would never do?


How many questions are asked like "When will more of Series-X be made?"? People will read fanfiction because it was more of what they wanted, sanctioned or not. If it's personally not your thing, then that's your prerogative. As I've grown older, I've grown colder to the idea; I'd rather read some more original work when I read fiction.

Ningensei wrote:
Throughout this thread, people have acknowledged over and over that 99% of fan fiction is crap, and that people just write it to hone their skills. But I just don't understand why you can't hone your skills writing your own stuff. What is the difference?


I think fanfic allows the author to selectively target an area of writing in which they may have issues with, while not having to fully craft a story. It is a double edged sword of sorts, but if proper focus is in place, it can be beneficial.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:50 am Reply with quote
You can quote studies and all that, but from practical experience I just cant believe that people dont naturally have more or less ability at things. Sure anyone really good at something is going to also have worked hard at it. However theres a pretty good chance that they had an aptitude for it initially.

For instance, I have always been quite good at drawing. Ever since I was young I was. I've never made any effort to improve my ability. I dont even actually draw that much. I dont see how you can explain this kind of thing (and this is just one example in a sea of similar cases) without assuming that people have some predisposed genetic or other ability.

Infact the overall concept of people not having natural ability seems to confilt with genetics. Unless people are all initially built exactly the same, it doesnt seem plausable to me.
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Fiction Alchemist



Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 438
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:00 am Reply with quote
Deleted cringe.

Last edited by Fiction Alchemist on Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18252
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:29 am Reply with quote
Jonasan wrote:
I agree that talent exists-I never said it did not. What I did say is it comes mostly from hard work, not genetic predisposition. And that's not my opinion, that's me going by scientific studies.


As I said before, semantics. Clearly you and the scientific studies you cite are meaning something different by "talent" than I am. And I agree with what others have said about those studies: chess is far from the most convincing of disciplines in which to demonstrate the existence (or lack thereof) of talent. Now, if you did such a study with singing or painting/drawing and got the same results, then it'd be a lot more convincing.

Quote:
I don't want to sound like a smartass, but you are definitely mistaken in saying that the ability to write language is innate. It is just as learned as chess. Speaking is innate, writing is not. Learning to write paragraphs is no more innate than learning to write HTML. Once again, I'm not spitting my opinion, this is a fact and the main reason why it is so easy for kids to learn to speak but so hard to learn to read.


Of course the basic mechanics of writing don't require any kind of innate ability, as like all forms of communication. They are learned rather than inherent behaviors. I don't question that at all, but that's not the aspect of writing I refer to when I talk about "talent" or "innate ability."

Quote:
Don't misinterpret me and think I'm saying writing as an ARTFORM, or any artform for that matter, is some mathematical, cold process. Obviously, it takes creativity, wisdom and insight into human nature and life. And those can come in many ways, and do require more than just studying the technique of writing itself.


And that is precisely the point I and some others are trying to get at: with many things, training, motivation, drive, and practice simply aren't enough to make a person truly good at something. That's where talent lies. If you don't want to call it "genetic predisposition" because studies don't seem to support that, fine; call it a quirk in the way the brain is structured or whatever. The more you delve into purely creative fields, like music or art or the way writing is structured to convey meaning and influence/entertain the reader, the more that indefinable quality matters.
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Jonasan
ANN Video Director & Producer


Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:15 am Reply with quote
Look, the evidence exists to disprove what you are saying. Lady Multi referenced two articles with their links, one of them based on careful and painstakingly hardcore research. If you truly care about this talent debate then read that. You'll see, they found the things that applied to chess applied to music and the creative arts as well. It does not change because it's a study of the human mind and how it becomes great at any activity at all, not chess in particular.

Btw, I stick to my guns on this because I am passionate about education, and the human mind, and I read a lot about both. So understand I'm not purposely trying to pick an argument.
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Ningensei



Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:35 am Reply with quote
@ SalaryManJoe: Thank you so much for your detailed and insightful answer. I really appreciate you answering all of my questions. Very Happy I feel like I have a better understanding, though I probably still won't be reading any fan fiction on the net any time soon. Heh.
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The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:43 am Reply with quote
Cephus wrote:
As someone who knows Misty and her husband Larry Dixon (actually, I knew Larry from his fannish activities long before I ever met Misty).


That's really weird. I think I've seen Larry Dixon on a comic book message board I frequent. I guess if you hang around enough nerd places, you'll run into the same people.

oslapedo wrote:
Ahhhhh. Fanfics aren't restricted to particular sexual orientations. And I would honsetly be surprised if homosexuals took up more of a piece of the yaoi fandom pie than straight fangirls did.


Well, my gay friend likes yaoi, especially Death Note and L.

And just to clarify, I really do mean my gay friend, not myself. I'm straight. I really do have a gay friend. Really. Dammit. People never believe you when you talk about a friend, do they?
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Cephus



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
Location: Redlands, CA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:00 am Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:
That's really weird. I think I've seen Larry Dixon on a comic book message board I frequent. I guess if you hang around enough nerd places, you'll run into the same people.


Larry is an artist, he's done a lot of the covers to Mercedes Lackey books so it's not surprising to find him on comic book boards, I suppose.
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Jen526



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 124
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:48 am Reply with quote
Re: Publishing Fanfiction

Skipping over all the quality/value-of-writing-fanfiction debate, I thought it was worth mentioning that the original questioner might want to familiarize himself with the concept of fanfiction 'zines. They're more a product of general TV and movie fandoms, not particularly anime-based, but they're pretty much the same idea he's talking about... fanfiction published in printed form and sold at cons, probably for a modest profit.

The thing is... I believe zines have actually been dying out because everything is online now. So, unless the OP can look at that "business model" and come up with some approach that makes his plan better than what's come before, it'd be pretty likely to be a bust, too.
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Lady Multi



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 675
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:29 pm Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:
oslapedo wrote:
Ahhhhh. Fanfics aren't restricted to particular sexual orientations. And I would honsetly be surprised if homosexuals took up more of a piece of the yaoi fandom pie than straight fangirls did.


Well, my gay friend likes yaoi, especially Death Note and L.

And just to clarify, I really do mean my gay friend, not myself. I'm straight. I really do have a gay friend. Really. Dammit. People never believe you when you talk about a friend, do they?


I believe you. BTW, I have a bisexual ex-boyfriend who is still, like, my best friend. He and his boyfriend knows what yaoi is (and like it) and ends up helping to make my yaoi fangirliness worse with the fact of roleplaying ... and cosplaying. Anime hyper They're great.

Not just all of homosexuals will just express it openly. They (my friends) might admit it to me but they're really closed people. They'd likely kill me if they knew I was talking about them here. ~haha.

There are closed, straight yaoi-fans, too. I'm not one of those, I assure you, haha~ I luv yaoi.
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:17 pm Reply with quote
It's good to know that with enough practice and hard work that everyone can be like my favorite cellist Yo-Yo Ma.

No, my guess is that if a thousand people went through the same exact training at age four and life he did that maybe 1 might reach his level of 'talent', if any at all.

And I don't think it is because of genetics either. Don't get me wrong genetics are great, and advances in that field are helping to solve many diseases. But not everything can be explained by genetics(I know there are those who believe otherwise). There are many variables that happen in the development of the brain which happen for reasons other than genes telling them too. And yes sometimes even some of that horribally bad word in the scientific community, randomness. True it helps to be tall to play basketball, but are all tall people good at basketball? Are all short people bad at basketball? Someone forgot to tell Spud Webb (5'7").

Some people just have a knack for things, and that is okay. If it weren't that way then everyone would be equal, and how boring would that be?
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britannicamoore



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 2618
Location: Out.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:40 pm Reply with quote
Sigh...I go away for the weekend and look what I miss! And someone got kicked- spammer or regular? Details- i'm really nosey.

Personally, I see fanfics as 50/50. For every good one I find a bad one. I think that might have something to do with the genres I search for.

But to the topic at hand- because this is important.
Berserkfury819 wrote:
Of course fanfiction isn't as complex. Your writing with someone else's characters. Thats why it bugs the hell out of me. I have spent countless hours revising and editing my own work, and it's disgusting that someone can take already established characters and say "Look, I'm an author too." Its beyond aggravating. Your just taking the easy way out. Anyone can write stories with someone else's characters, it doesn't take any talent.


Then fanart isn't as complex either because you're drawing someone esle charcters. And yet at every con you go to you'll see somone in a booth selling their copied materials.

Oh but drawing is so much harder! How? Besides going out and buying paint or pens? Driving to the store? Writing is just as hard, Fanfiction or not. As a person who does both (orginal writing came before fafics) I see both equally hard. I've been writing, revising, and working on the same story for ten years- its my major as well. Fanfics aren't taking the easy way out at all- you've got to sit down and do the same things as you do with orginal stories.

You've got to map out a plot to your story, you've got to figure out the best way to decribe the charcters so people can see them as you envisioned- it goes on and on. In my creative writers workshop we were given a list of chracters (from a book we had perviously read) and told we had to write a 30 page story based off these charcters (like we were writing the sequal to a book) conveying their personalities. In short- we had to write fanfiction based off another persons story.

For people trying to become good writers its a chance to learn to convey personality. So what if someone wrote the story perviously- as long as you give credit and get creative its no big thing. The idea of ff.net is/was for you to write your fics and have people tell you what you did wrong. (xing and I have a history... Evil or Very Mad )

I can't stand it when people who write orginal fiction consider themseleves vastly superior to the world. We're all writers and everyone starts somewhere.

My feelings are, if they are going to allow people to sell fanfics at a con posibly have a a group read the stories in advance- that way you'd get quality stuff. Because really- you never see someone at a con selling stick figures for $30.
(and if they do...unless its Jesus drawing through the hand of a blind person why would you buy it?)

As for not being able to "see" the fanfics- you can't see the manga at the store or any other book you buy. Unless you read the whole thing there. A back cover description will do.
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Cephus



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
Location: Redlands, CA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:03 pm Reply with quote
Jen526 wrote:
The thing is... I believe zines have actually been dying out because everything is online now. So, unless the OP can look at that "business model" and come up with some approach that makes his plan better than what's come before, it'd be pretty likely to be a bust, too.


'Zines are pretty much an extinct breed now, it's nothing like it was back in the 80s where you'd have entire rooms at conventions dedicated to zines. There are a few diehard holdouts out there, but the overwhelming majority, as you said, have gone electronic and virtually none of them are sold for money.
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Cephus



Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
Location: Redlands, CA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:11 pm Reply with quote
britannicamoore wrote:
Personally, I see fanfics as 50/50. For every good one I find a bad one. I think that might have something to do with the genres I search for.


Oh, the ratio is much, much lower than that. Maybe for every one that's readable (not even good, just competent), you'll find 200+ really bad ones written in terrible English, no concept of punctuation and little more than a Mary-Sue hero-worship piece. Go look through fanfiction.net, it's just horrible.

Quote:
You've got to map out a plot to your story, you've got to figure out the best way to decribe the charcters so people can see them as you envisioned- it goes on and on. In my creative writers workshop we were given a list of chracters (from a book we had perviously read) and told we had to write a 30 page story based off these charcters (like we were writing the sequal to a book) conveying their personalities. In short- we had to write fanfiction based off another persons story.


But you don't have to do any of that in a fanfic story. The characters already exist, someone else created them, you don't have to make them 'live' for the audience, they already know what they're getting. The same for the world, you're writing in someone else's playground, everyone knows what to expect. Anyone writing fanfic has 80% of the work done for them going into it.

Certainly if you're going to acknowledge that you're playing in someone else's playground and are just doing it for shits and giggles, that's fine, but to pretend that writing fanfic is the same as writing an entirely original story of your own, that's just not the case.
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