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EP. REVIEW: Bleach: Thousand-Year Blood War Season 2


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Unculturedman



Joined: 01 Apr 2022
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:52 am Reply with quote
LastPage 3 wrote:

Whether you care or not is immaterial. Bleach is and always has been a multimedia project consisting of more than just the manga. The novels and anime are just as canon as the manga.


Besides the fact that including the new anime and novel material doesn't improve the source material that much, why should Bleach be held to a different standard compared to all other shonen? Plenty of other shonen mangaka have managed to write solid, competent and compelling stories within the confines of the source material itself. No one should have to consult extra material to make sense of a manga. Any decent shonen doesn't need any extra information from extra, dubiously canon material. Of course I have no problem with supplemental material, but it has to supplement an already complete story and add to it, not try to fill in gaps left behind by bad writing.

Most people agree with this notion except Bleach fans, who love to make all sorts of exceptions for their favorite series. Bleach can and should be judged based on its manga first and foremost. Bleach is a 74 volume manga. Kubo had plenty of time to actually write a story and instead chose to showcase endless one on one fights between shallow characters. That is entirely Kubo's fault. That is a major objective flaw of the manga and something you can't get away from by saying the anime has fixed whatever or the novel explains whatever. Hell, Kubo has gone on record saying he hates the original anime, that it got away from his original vision or something. That's why he has been so hands on with the new anime, and partially why it feels so different from the original.
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LastPage 3



Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:00 pm Reply with quote
CelestialEmpress wrote:

I brought up Mayuri slaughtering 30,000 innocent people in one day because it's a direct comparison to Aizen slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people over the course of centuries.


The context isn't really the same since Mayuri killing those people was the only way to save everyone else in existence from death while Aizen killed those other people just for his ego trip.

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Mayuri is an irredeemable monster who should never have been allowed to roam free and any competent organization wouldn't have signed off on Urahara's request to pull him out of prison and offer him a job. Hell, the guy who vouched for him was accused of treason and had to flee to the living room to escape execution, and they promoted his pet murder clown once he left!


That's a funny thing to say, considering that Mayuri hadn't actually committed any crimes to get put down there as far as we know. Or does the Gotei's record of human rights abuses only count in some instances?

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My dude, I don't care about the spinoffs that somebody else wrote to fill in the missing gaps. I shouldn't have to do homework to learn the basic plot points that Kubo couldn't be assed to include in his own story. Like, you don't have to sit through Yashahime just to figure out if half the characters from Inuyasha survived the final battle.


Please see below.

Unculturedman wrote:

why should Bleach be held to a different standard compared to all other shonen? Plenty of other shonen mangaka have managed to write solid, competent and compelling stories within the confines of the source material itself. No one should have to consult extra material to make sense of a manga.


Perhaps you don't read much shonen manga, but many of them do the exact same thing.

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Any decent shonen doesn't need any extra information from extra, dubiously canon material.


If I have to choose who to believe over the canoncity of side material, I think I'll trust Kubo over a random guy on the internet.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4621
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:15 pm Reply with quote
LastPage 3 wrote:
You're totally on the right track about Mayuri being a crazy psycho, but y'know, if you want to censure Mayuri, better to bring up his actions against the Quincies rather than that incident, since if he hadn't everyone in existence would have died.

That doesn't do much for me, because Kubo's whole "soul cycle" concept made very little sense from the get-go, and then he never went back to properly develop it afterwards. (For instance: how the hell can souls have babies?) I remember a big deal being made when Ishida was introduced, because "zomg Quincies completely destroy souls and that upset the balance!", but then after he becomes friends with Ichigo he keeps killing Hollows and no one ever bats an eye over it again. If Kubo showed he cared about that bit of world-building, then I would too. As it stands, all I see is Kubo making a baffling choice to make one of the "good" characters casually commit genocide.

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Whether you care or not is immaterial. Bleach is and always has been a multimedia project consisting of more than just the manga. The novels and anime are just as canon as the manga.

That's...never been the case, either for Bleach or any other big Jump property. They may occasionally get spinoff novels during their run or after the fact that tell side stories or fill in some gaps, but they're intended as supplemental to the original manga canon, not an integral part of it. And Jump anime adaptations have never been viewed as canon, even when they're adapting pure manga content. Hell, Bleach's anime adaptation in particular has entire filler arcs that aren't even canon to the anime itself. There was more than one occasion when the anime ran up against the current manga content right in the middle of an arc, and there was no good way to insert filler content seamlessly, so it just cut away to some random "what-if" story about a random Soul Society princess or whatever. As bad as some Jump filler gets, I've never seen another series have to resort to that nonsense.
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CelestialEmpress



Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 113
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:52 pm Reply with quote
LastPage 3 wrote:
CelestialEmpress wrote:

I brought up Mayuri slaughtering 30,000 innocent people in one day because it's a direct comparison to Aizen slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people over the course of centuries.


The context isn't really the same since Mayuri killing those people was the only way to save everyone else in existence from death while Aizen killed those other people just for his ego trip.

But there's an entirely separate problem in that literally nobody gives a shit their monster clown just did a genocide. Yamamoto is only mildly annoyed that he didn't get permission first, and that's it. He's supposedly had a serious change of heart since Ichigo's arrival and has become a better person, yet he clearly does not give two whistling dicks about anyone. If not Yamamoto, you'd think somebody on the good side would have some kind of strong reaction to the fact that they were forced to commit an atrocity against their own citizens, but it's never brought up again. Any competent author could have easily worked that into the heroes' motivations but instead Kubo just drops it like a bag of moldy cheese.
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KaidoYuji8Shinji



Joined: 15 Mar 2016
Posts: 119
Location: Manchester, NH
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:32 pm Reply with quote
MFrontier wrote:
So the English dub recast Yoruichi with Anairis Quinones taking over for Wendee Lee.

I can't say I'm completely surprised, and I have no complaints about Anairis' talent, but it just felt kind of an unnecessary recasting for a role Wendee Lee is really passionate about and could still pull off.



Grrrr. Why so many recasts!? She’s in the show!
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LastPage 3



Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:52 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:

That doesn't do much for me, because Kubo's whole "soul cycle" concept made very little sense from the get-go, and then he never went back to properly develop it afterwards.


This is a legitimately insane thing to say when the whole of Bleach and particularly TYBW is about this very thing.

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(For instance: how the hell can souls have babies?)


Bleach (or more accurately the afterlife known as the Soul Society) is grounded in Buddhist theology, not Christian. Soul Society is not Heaven.

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I remember a big deal being made when Ishida was introduced, because "zomg Quincies completely destroy souls and that upset the balance!", but then after he becomes friends with Ichigo he keeps killing Hollows and no one ever bats an eye over it again.


They already went over all of that when Ishida was introduced. The reality is that if Ishida sees a human about to die from a Hollow, he's going to choose that human's eternal soul over the Hollows. While that can have disastrous consequences on the whole, what Ishida himself personally does is not going to end up destroying reality, so it's a moral problem relevant mostly to him and he's made his peace with it.

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If Kubo showed he cared about that bit of world-building, then I would too. As it stands, all I see is Kubo making a baffling choice to make one of the "good" characters casually commit genocide.


Again, it's literally crazy to suggest that Mayuri is in any way, shape or form, a good guy.

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That's...never been the case, either for Bleach or any other big Jump property. They may occasionally get spinoff novels during their run or after the fact that tell side stories or fill in some gaps, but they're intended as supplemental to the original manga canon, not an integral part of it. And Jump anime adaptations have never been viewed as canon, even when they're adapting pure manga content. Hell, Bleach's anime adaptation in particular has entire filler arcs that aren't even canon to the anime itself. There was more than one occasion when the anime ran up against the current manga content right in the middle of an arc, and there was no good way to insert filler content seamlessly, so it just cut away to some random "what-if" story about a random Soul Society princess or whatever. As bad as some Jump filler gets, I've never seen another series have to resort to that nonsense.


Now you're simply arguing semantics. You say that they are supplemental when most of these authors would in fact argue that it is all part of the overarching story that they are telling, divided into differing media as is appropriate.

Weekly mangas are a hellish schedule even in the best of times and it isn't possible to include everything an author would like to include in those pages, especially when you add outside influences into their workflow.

CelestialEmpress wrote:

But there's an entirely separate problem in that literally nobody gives a shit their monster clown just did a genocide. Yamamoto is only mildly annoyed that he didn't get permission first, and that's it. He's supposedly had a serious change of heart since Ichigo's arrival and has become a better person, yet he clearly does not give two whistling dicks about anyone. If not Yamamoto, you'd think somebody on the good side would have some kind of strong reaction to the fact that they were forced to commit an atrocity against their own citizens, but it's never brought up again.


I mean, no one outside of Yama even knew. You can argue he didn't care though I might wonder how exactly you'd want him to verbalize that (though I would say Yhwach's whole monologue about him or how he died did that for us)

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Any competent author could have easily worked that into the heroes' motivations but instead Kubo just drops it like a bag of moldy cheese.


I'm saying this a lot, but the idea that Kubo just didn't talk about the inherent, foundational rot and instability at the root of the soul cycle is truly, wildly crazy.
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Unculturedman



Joined: 01 Apr 2022
Posts: 57
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:39 pm Reply with quote
LastPage 3 wrote:

Now you're simply arguing semantics. You say that they are supplemental when most of these authors would in fact argue that it is all part of the overarching story that they are telling, divided into differing media as is appropriate.

Weekly mangas are a hellish schedule even in the best of times and it isn't possible to include everything an author would like to include in those pages, especially when you add outside influences into their workflow.


This is truly the last time I will say this, but this is quite literally a pointless argument here. This person legitimately believes that Bleach needing multiple volumes of a novel to understand its lore and world building is justifiable. That Bleach is a "multimedia project" that can't be judged for its manga alone. You can provide whatever logic you wish. It doesn't mean anything. As a Bleach fan, you have to just fundamentally choose to see the facts of the series differently than non fans in order to enjoy the series. I may disagree with that, but it's their choice.

Back to the topic, everyone knows being a weekly mangaka is extremely difficult. Kubo is simply a poor writer and storyteller, or, egged on by the editors to save the series, chose to focus on what he did to improve the series popularity. Bleach is a narrative mess devoid of any semblance of consistency, decent plot development, or good character writing because Kubo made the active decision to avoid actually writing a story, developing a world and exploring and developing a manageable cast of characters, because fans wanted to see Mayuri fight zombies with zombies. Because we needed a Kenpachi fight every arc. Because we needed to see a terrible Visored backstory arc. Because we needed to know that everything has a soul. Because we had to see Ukitake bust out his shikai ability. Because we had to see Aizen standing around doing nothing while his espada subordinates get picked off and then he finishes the job. All the while the narrative screeches to a halt because Kubo didn't know what he was doing. This final arc is rife with some of the worst moments in the entire series, and you guys still love it. That's really all that needs to be said.

Kubo had 15 years and 74 volumes to write a story. There is absolutely no excuse for how emotionless, shallow, shoddy and poorly thrown together it all is. Do not conflate Bleach's particular failings with the struggle many other decent weekly shonen mangaka have had, to produce some truly great works of fiction under extremely difficult circumstances. Bleach's failings are almost entirely Kubo's fault. He's not a talented writer or storyteller. He is much worse than most of his contemporaries, predecessors and even successors in the shonen space. We mourn the great series that could've been. It simply did not live up to its potential.
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