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Mohawk52 wrote:

configspace wrote:

To give you an idea, Bandai would still be much better off selling 5,000 sub-only dvds than they would be selling 7,000 dvds with dubs. They would actually make less money on those 7k dvds over the 5k sub-only.

That would only be plausable depending on what title and how it is marketed. It seems the trend is to licence only for sub fans sake with no consideration for general sales to not only fans, but also for those who could, or would be fans if it had a language track of the general population. I often get the question "so you understand Japanese then?" They look surprised when I say all the ones I watch have an English dub. My point is anime is niche because the industry is selling it that way now, trying to sell to the needle in the hay stack. Hay doesn't speak needle.

Actually that was meant to be a concrete example no matter the title if you work out the math. I don't think people realize how much more you have to sell to just make up for the costs of a dub, let alone make a profit.

Basically at $10,000+ per episode (very likely more for pro British, theatre trained actors like the Hellsing cast) and a wholesale cost minus some expenses (duplication, etc) of roughly $15 per volume, since retailers are all selling for them $25, that seemingly large difference is still not anywhere near enough to make up for the dubbing costs.

i.e. Bandai spent $140,000 on dubs for the whole show or $70,000 for a single volume. Bandai sells 2,000 volumes more. That's an income of $30,000. Not close enough to making up for the $70,000.

Even worse, if 2,000 volumes is difference between sub and dub for the entire 2-volume set, that lost even more money -- they just spent $140,000 but only made back $30,000.

configspace wrote:

Actually that was meant to be a concrete example no matter the title if you work out the math. I don't think people realize how much more you have to sell to just make up for the costs of a dub, let alone make a profit.

I'm sorry, but you actually work for Bandai Entertainment then?

Nope. The dubbing cost is the standard industry average and given the actual retailer street price, it's not hard to roughly estimate wholesale cost, and you can easily find out other expenses like disc duplication. It's the same method that companies like iSuppli uses to deconstruct the actual cost of the iPhone for example.

Well the numbers look impressive, but can you tell me where you got them, other than from a semi conductor trade centre?

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0906/178.html
Forbes labels the dubbing process as "remastering" sound (which may involve replacing other audio elements like SFX)

Quote:

Remastering the sound costs another $10,000 to $20,000 per half-hour. That's done at ADV's Houston production center-featuring eight soundproof studios with mission-control-style consoles to upgrade soundtracks. ... An army of 400 voice actors dub the films into English.

http://www.mania.com/top-five-things-anime-companies-did-wrong-2008_article_111940.html

Quote:

Of course, then companies started licensing shows for upwards of 75,000$ per episode before the 10,000$ average cost of a dub was factored into it.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/11935.html
- Funi CEO

Quote:

... because we still have to spend $10,000 an episode to dub the thing. It's a huge investment for us.

http://bayoab.info/live/live2.php?panel=3
RightStuff/Nozomi panel at AX2009:

Quote:

17:28:30 <zalas> Q: Dubs?
17:28:35 <zalas> A: No ARIA or Mariasama dub
17:28:44 <zalas> A: If we can find a show we can dub that we can put into mass market
17:29:17 <zalas> A: It's difficult to justify the enormous expense to dub when people aren't buying DVDs
17:29:23 <zalas> A: 1/4 million dollars +
17:29:29 <zalas> A: Lots of DVDs to buy to break even

(1/4 million $ for show = $10,000 per ep)

Second hand citation:
http://www.mania.com/aodvb/showthread.php?p=1077023
About RightStuff and Emma:

Quote:

The quoted rate has been $10,000 an episode. That was from a forum rep here quite some time ago.

more second hand citation for other companies, Japanime, KittyMedia, Funimation:
http://www.mania.com/aodvb/showthread.php?t=71104&page=14
http://community.funimation.com/tm.aspx?m=43428&mpage=7

As far as cost per volume, as I said, it's a rough estimate, but that's all that's needed. If practically all retailers are selling them at $25, do you think really think Bandai is getting even $20? Heck, my own figure thrown out there at $15 might be too generous.

Mohawk52 wrote:

Well the numbers look impressive, but can you tell me where you got them, other than from a semi conductor trade centre?

I'm just a fan with a pretty good memory of an interview done with ADV's boss a couple years ago which put the cost at about $10,000-$40,000 depending on the length of the project (25 mins or 90 min movie) & union vs non-union staffing. I seem to recall the ADV fugure put the costs of licensing, etc at around half a mil per title. While that was at the height of the licensing craze, there's no reason to believe the dubbing costs have gone down even if title prices probably have. If anything, one would expect them to have increased at least slightly

Now you see the attraction of sub-only? The translation just needs to be smoothed into legible English (usually. There are bloopers) & added to the episodes.

Yes, I support the idea of dubbing titles, but realistically in the current environment most of us are just lucky to have our own jobs & have enough to buy a few titles. I'm not adverse to being able to buy 2 titles for the price of one.If putting a dub on one title for you & people like you is denying me the lesser known title I may want picked up, hell yeah, it pisses me off.

I haven't really seen that many titles stripped of a dub unless the title has changed hands & the dub wasn't part of the deal.
You may recall CPM tried to reduce the cost of anime by offering titles with the only dub & we all know where they've ended up. I suppose someone might be able to access info on how well those titles sold. I happened to win one & actually never opened it (because I had Heroic Legend of Arislan which I'd bought for an arm & a leg when they were asking over $50 for a title with just 6 eps.)

In fact your argument doesnt' really hold water when one notes the uncut YuGiOh dvds were dropped because they ate into the sales of the dub-only version. I remember because I was buying them because there are several Japanese VAs I like in the cast & I note excuses offered on orders I've placed which get cancelled by someone other than myself.

SongstressCela wrote:

Shoujo Beat was just an example, I'm not sure -how- they would have done it. I'm not a marketing guru. xD And, again, no one's really -tried- marketing anime to other audiences. You can stick DVDs on shelves everywhere you want, but if people view it in a certain way that's not going to help.

You can't just slap things around and hope because they're widely available people will buy them. Bigger studios like Funimation, Bandai, they -could- sink money into more impressive marketing.

It's very easy to sit here and say that they could/should do X, or complain that they don't do X, when you have no idea how X might realistically be achieved. Again, it all comes down to how much return they think they're likely to get for the expense. And sure, Funimation and Bandai could sink money into some impressive marketing, but they could also sink money into dubbing niche titles. Doesn't necessarily mean that doing so will pay off.

SongstressCela wrote:

Fathom Events is doing a good job of this with the wider release of anime films stateside, like Sword of the Stranger. In our theater I saw a -ton- of people who I would not have guessed to be fans of the medium in general--lots of older people, for example.

A number of older people are into anime, but there are many who aren't. And going to the occasional film that happens to be animated in Japan isn't the same thing as being a fan of anime in general. When I went and saw The Girl Who Leapt Through Time at a film festival here, maybe half the audience were anime fans there to see anime, and the other half was the arthouse cinema crowd there to see an award-winning foreign film.

configspace wrote:

As far as cost per volume, as I said, it's a rough estimate, but that's all that's needed. If practically all retailers are selling them at $25, do you think really think Bandai is getting even $20? Heck, my own figure thrown out there at $15 might be too generous.

I've seen a US wholesaler's catalogue, and $15 is what the wholesaler is charging for a title that retails for $25. Once the wholesaler's got their cut, what the publisher gets is probably closer to $10.

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

I've seen a US wholesaler's catalogue, and $15 is what the wholesaler is charging for a title that retails for $25. Once the wholesaler's got their cut, what the publisher gets is probably closer to $10.

You're numbers are pretty close here. I know Best Buy generally pays somewhere around $13-15 for an anime single, except for Geneon's who were generally $18+. As for box sets, it varies greatly depending on the publisher and the series.

And after you take into account the cuts that Navarre, Ingram, Warner, etc, would take, it probably comes out closer to $10 going back to the publisher. So in theory, Bandai would need to sell a 1000 copies just to make back the cost of the dub, or more, depending on the studio used, number of episodes, etc. Then you have to factor in the cost of packaging, replication, and of course the license.

It came to light earlier this year, that several anime releases in 2008 failed to even break the 500 copy barrier (true many of those were Bandai Visual). In the UK, the first volume of Red Garden sold less than 100 copies. And even Trinity Blood, which aired on AS and had some significant exposure as a result, only sold 20K copies through it's entire run. Given these numbers, and the fact they are continuing to decline, it's really not surprising that many of the smaller studios, ADV, Bandai, Right Stuf, are choosing to skip dubs.

You have to remember, Funimation can afford to take losses on dubbing certain shows, because it has the supreme cash cow that is DBZ, not to mention Afro Samurai. Once upon a time, ADV could do the same because it had Eva practically spitting money in it's face. Unfortunately, now Bandai, Right Stuf, and ADV don't have any real big cash generators (and Gundam doesn't really count anymore, no offense.)

Mohawk52 wrote:

I see this increase in sub- only releasing policy as a panic measure to try and grab the attention of people doing that, neglecting the people who almost always bought the hybrid DVDs.

You mean something like this:

Executive #1: "We've got a problem. The sub fan minority have stopped buying DVDs in favor of free downloads. However the dub fan majority is still faithfully buying discs."

Executive #2: "OH MY GOD!!!!! WE'VE GOT TO GET THOSE SUB FANS BACK!!!! I know, lets screw the dub fans. We'll stop making dubs and maybe the sub fans will come back."

You don't happen to write British comedy shows, do you?

Quote:

I'm saying the market did well when both sub and dub fans bought discs, because they were able to be satisfied equally, but now that sub fans have quit buying discs, for free downloads, the studios, and distros are tantamount to neglecting the flock to chase the few who have jumped the fence and might be persuaded to return to the fold, so to speak. As a dub fan I am noticing that neglect.

Nice theory, now can you prove:

1) That sub fans have quit buying discs? The success of recent sub-only discs argues otherwise. And while you're thinking about it please let me know who's downloading all those dual-audio DVD rips I see on the net. I just had to clean out a compromised server that was full of them. For some reason all of them had English set as the default language.

2) That the companies are neglecting dubs in order to chase after sub fans. Please note that citing the lack of dubs will be considered as circular reasoning.

I honestly don't get this dub argument. I'm a huge fan of hybrids myself, but I also concede that distribs have a better idea than we do whether a dub will yield a worthwhile return on investment. I hardly think the distrib execs sit around and say, "Yeah, we could make a lot more money on dubs, but they're such a hassle to arrange. Let's just stick with subs and be happy with less profit."

Come on, people, use some common sense.

Blood- wrote:

I honestly don't get this dub argument. I'm a huge fan of hybrids myself, but I also concede that distribs have a better idea than we do whether a dub will yield a worthwhile return on investment. I hardly think the distrib execs sit around and say, "Yeah, we could make a lot more money on dubs, but they're such a hassle to arrange. Let's just stick with subs and be happy with less profit."

Come on, people, use some common sense.

exactly, I'am all for sub-only releases for niche titles, but i want my triple-A titles to have a dub. How pissed off would you be if FMA: brotherhood only got a sub release? or if Cowboy Bebop only had subs??

I guess there's no point in becoming annoyed that this is the new subject that every tangentially related thread diverges into. I guess this is the new "fansubs r teh devil" subject.

The numbers posted earlier were basically right. You can do a dub for about $7500 these days, but it'd likely be non-union and therefore limit your talent pool. (Or you could get Odex to do it for 1/4 of that... but I can only imagine how many people THAT would please Wink

Wholesale price is generally 1/2 of SRP. Also don't forget to factor in about $1/disc for replication, $15/min for translation and subtitle timing. Let's add another $4000 for authoring too. (You have overhead, even if you own the equipment.)

So, let's say we're doing a 5-episode disc.

DUB COSTS: $7500 x 5 = $37,500
SUB COSTS: $15 x 125 = $1875
AUTH COSTS: $4000
TOTAL STARTUP COSTS PER DISC: $43375

Now, assuming $24.99 SRP...
Startup costs = Breakeven Units x (wholesale revenues - per-unit cost)
43375 = Breakeven Units x ((25 x 50%) -1)

43375 = b(12.5 - 1)
43375 = b x 11.5
3772 (rounded) = b

That means that IF THE LICENSE IS COMPLETELY FREE, a dub STILL has to sell AT LEAST 3800 units just to break even.

Most anime these days fails to break 2,000 units.

Food for thought.

(edit: fixed my math. It's late, leave me alone)

Thanks, Justin. It's nice to see some numbers from somebody who is actually in a position to know approximately what the real figures are. As I said before, I love dubs. I'm thankful any time a series I want to own offers one. But bitching at distribs in those cases where they have determined they can't make money on a dub is simply being unreasonable.

jsevakis wrote:

I guess there's no point in becoming annoyed that this is the new subject that every tangentially related thread diverges into. I guess this is the new "fansubs r teh devil" subject.

Ignorance is bliss, but in the meantime, we'll just simply endure with all the opinions, fact-less as they may be.

jsevakis wrote:

That means that IF THE LICENSE IS COMPLETELY FREE, a dub STILL has to sell AT LEAST 3800 units just to break even.
Most anime these days fails to break 2,000 units.
Food for thought.

I'm sure my comments are going to stir up a hornet's nest of anger, but I need to in order to show the "flip" side of "costs": the consumer.

Truth be told, the anime market is over-saturated with titles. When a particular series doesn't sell its make-up units, that's a warning sign of a massive failure.

Cutting costs isn't going to help, as the underlining problem still exists. That problem is quite simple: anime is too expensive.

Now, don't go getting pissed just yet. I know costs have come down significantly over the years, but let's review the target audience for a second.

Can these 13-24 year old consumer really afford all the anime they want? I seriously doubt it. Titles are going to suffer because consumers simply can't buy them all.

$50 (or even the $25 example) is pricey and leaves consumers having to pick and choose the titles they want. With all the anime available, it makes perfect sense many won't recoup the costs of dubbing.

Personally, I make a decent salary, but even my salary can't afford me all the titles I want. If it wasn't for TRSI's bargain bin, there's no way my collection would be as big as it is now.

Over-saturation has plagued the studios for years, giving distributors the "upper hand". There was a time when there were over 400 studios in Japan, until the bubble burst, leaving about half that now.

Of course, the solution would be to release fewer series to cut costs, but this is a double-edged sword as less titles = less fan support. I can see how distributors are having a tough time.

My observations have given me the position that fast revenue is what distributors vie for in order to invest in the next series. Without this fast revenue, the distributor simply can not afford the licensing fees if reducing costs of box sets/singles/etc. can't generate the revenues quickly enough.

I don't believe dubbing exclusion is required to solve this problem. It's not going to save much in the long term, simply due to the over-saturated market.

Selling a non-dubbed DVD collection to fans is going to upset them, especially when they feel the costs should be far less without the dub, yet we're not seeing this happen.

Instead, many will find alternatives (legal or not) but continue buying titles they can afford to. Streaming is a fantastic solution for consumers, but definitely not for distributors.

There's no way a "free" (aka, ad supported) stream will offer the same revenues of a box set. I'm sure some distributors are relying on the "show it for free and hope for a sale" method will work out, but history shows this not to be the case.

Another personal observation, especially regarding the economic situation, tells me this also can't be a factor since many tend to forget Japan was in a huge recession long before this hit.

Anime survived then. It'll survive now. Change is inevitable, but until a few new business models are tested to find success, the current industry will continue suffering losses.

Even without fan sub sites, DVD sales will continue to plummet. With the internet, over-saturation has hit a critical high that no industry was prepared to deal with.

(please forgive any randomness and grammar errors... I'm at work... *sshhh*) Wink

Honestly I think the argument that anime is too exspensive is losing ground now a days. When you compare more recent whole season half season boxsets with regular DVD/TV series counterparts you get a fairly equal or similar price matching.

The big difference is non-anime series have more sources of revenue they draw from. You have movie theater releases and TV showings, higher end ads on online streams, money from commericals in the shows timeslot, licensing rights etc besides DVD sales. Unfortunately the Us anime industry doesn't really have any of that besides DVDs and one or 2 Theater releases a year in select theaters. In comparision the US anime industry is short changing itself...

Sub only for some series outside of the triple A series is a smart move for the time being. But I agree that it shouldn't be the only thing done. Attempts at appealling to non-anime fanbases is a must to grow and survive. Being able to recapture that audience that grew up with Yugioh, Naruto and Bakugan is a must just as it was getting back those who've grown up with Pokemon and DBZ in the 90's and Robotech, Voltron, Speed Racer and Gatchaman before then.

We all see the down turn of things in the industry but we have to remember all of the advancements too. Anime, while still not quite at the level we want in a general populace, is engrained into the younger generation and future exes, film makers and whatever. Anime is breaking free from the "that's kid's stuff" cartoons have always held. More and more older people are more accepting to go back to cartoons as a source of entertainment then they were 10 - 20 years ago. Compared to where we were back during Speed Racer times to now, we have grown. Ideally we like it big and longer lasting but a slower growth isn't bad either. This restructoring and change of business strategies is needed to set a foundation for a more stable long haul rather then being overly optimistic that cost some companies, both long and short lived ones, to collapse.

Just look at how long it took games and comic series to get where they are. And they still need a bit of growing to do.

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