×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
REVIEW: Lupin the Third: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine BD+DVD


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
roseversailles



Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 236
Location: Washington, U.S.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:35 am Reply with quote
Echo_City wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to why this series exists as Episode 1 shows that Lupin hands-down out-plays Fujiko Mine and that he only bothers with her out of boredom. Having now seen more of the series I would say that it would be what Death Note would have been like if Kira had been able to kill L via the Death Note at any time but chose not to just so he had someone to mess with.
Quote:
It seems an odd thing to say that one of the darkest, grittiest, most libidinous interpretations of Lupin's world is the most feminine, but like Fujiko, the contradiction begets the intrigue.
So women aren't "dark" or sexual? I think that there are a great many romance novels that would beg to differ, as would Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut (and, for that matter, so would Speed Grapher lol).

I don't agree with this "Lupin should have been darker, more serious" sentiment as that isn't his character in the least: Lupin is a goofball who "surfs" a rocket-propelled statue made out of (what amounts to) LSD through the air. He's always been a goofball. While I would honestly prefer it if Lupin were a cross between Kira and Golgo 13, which is what I believe is called for by the review, the only way that I can see that happening is if Funimation took it upon themselves to radically shift his character to that...and again, that wouldn't jibe with the "surfing the LSD rocket statue" imagery (or most of the imagery that I've seen in the show TBH).


I know Fronzel already responded but I wanted to give my two cents, as a semi-recent Lupin fan that has been checking out different parts of the franchise. In the original "Green Jacket Series" and manga, Lupin was not the nicest guy, kind of an edgy thief that wasn't the buffoon he later came to be, especially when it comes to women. His silly behavior is to psyche out his enemies, so that they aren't expecting him to be that competent when the time comes to square off. When the first few episodes didn't do well due to their violence/sexual content (which was mild, really) and pulpy nature, the series was rebooted by a few members of future Studio Ghibli, namely Takahata and Miyazaki. The series became softer, more lighthearted, with the genial romps and adventure that has become synonymous with the name "Lupin III." This continued until the third series, the Pink Jacket, which became so goofy that fans kind of look down on it, and as a result it has yet to be released stateside.

So, to sum up, this Lupin is the truest interpretation we've had in a long time, as he is closest to what Monkey Punch originally wrote. I hope my post hasn't been completely dull Smile

P.S. My personal favorite rendition of Lupin has to be the Cagliostro Lupin! He's just so... nice and charming, that it's kind of fun to see him that way. Though I do like the Red Jacket series quite a bit, too!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZODDGUTS



Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 600
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:06 am Reply with quote
Terrible series that only showed that Fujiko can't carry a series and that it's better left off with Lupin being the lead.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8467
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:53 am Reply with quote
roseversailles wrote:
When the first few episodes didn't do well due to their violence/sexual content (which was mild, really) and pulpy nature, the series was rebooted by a few members of future Studio Ghibli, namely Takahata and Miyazaki.


Maybe the early episodes didn't do well because they were horrendously awful. Have you seen those early episodes? It's not that they were too dark or violent, they were just ludicrous and poorly written. I mean, the first episode of the series is Lupin in a race car, then foiling the plan of some organization that wants to kill him for no stated reason and blowing up the race track. No establishment of who he is or what he does. There isn't even a real caper until several episodes in. The episode with the fake magic guy is based on one of Monkey Punch's earliest (and worst) manga chapters. Then there's the episode with the "witch", where they don't even explain how that woman is a witch or really anything.

The show only gets on its feet when Goemon comes in.

What Miyazaki later added wasn't more lighteheartedness. It was FOCUS. Episodes actually became about something instead of just random scenes to titillate.

And for the people who think Miyazaki's Lupin was too much of a soft touch, the dude directed an episode wherein Fujiko is not wearing any underwear for most of it and the villain is trying to nuke cities and another where robots tear up the city and people are killed. The villain of Castle of Cagliostro is crushed to death by giant clock hands and Lupin is bloodier than he's ever been in the TV shows when he's brutally gunned down by the Count's assistant, which he barely survives. So while yes, he did lean towards a more philanthropic, heroic Lupin, at least he knew the world Lupin lived in and understood its dangers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:26 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:


Maybe the early episodes didn't do well because they were horrendously awful. Have you seen those early episodes? It's not that they were too dark or violent, they were just ludicrous and poorly written. I mean, the first episode of the series is Lupin in a race car, then foiling the plan of some organization that wants to kill him for no stated reason and blowing up the race track. No establishment of who he is or what he does. There isn't even a real caper until several episodes in. The episode with the fake magic guy is based on one of Monkey Punch's earliest (and worst) manga chapters. Then there's the episode with the "witch", where they don't even explain how that woman is a witch or really anything.

The show only gets on its feet when Goemon comes in.

What Miyazaki later added wasn't more lighteheartedness. It was FOCUS. Episodes actually became about something instead of just random scenes to titillate.

Ha ha! Well put!

I really liked the fake magic-guy episode, but probably because I had been introduced to Lupin through the second series episodes on Adult Swim and found the melancholy touches in that episode intriguingly different from what I was expecting.

I will say I rather like the early depiction of Fujiko, where she's actually mysterious and dangerous (she outright tries to shoot Lupin a few times). In the second series she's usually a somewhat ridiculous character who usually just nags Lupin to give her jewels.

And there are plenty of episodes in the second series which are both silly and unfocused, so I think the wrong lessons were drawn about what the early series 1 episodes did wrong and what the later ones did right (and vice versa).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hojo 360



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 429
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:18 pm Reply with quote
Idk i like Strait's lupin it's not the best but not bad Confused anyway my fav lupin at this point still and all ways will be Tony OLIVER wish funi got him but still not a bad buy Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
roseversailles



Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 236
Location: Washington, U.S.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:46 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
roseversailles wrote:
When the first few episodes didn't do well due to their violence/sexual content (which was mild, really) and pulpy nature, the series was rebooted by a few members of future Studio Ghibli, namely Takahata and Miyazaki.


Maybe the early episodes didn't do well because they were horrendously awful. Have you seen those early episodes? It's not that they were too dark or violent, they were just ludicrous and poorly written. I mean, the first episode of the series is Lupin in a race car, then foiling the plan of some organization that wants to kill him for no stated reason and blowing up the race track. No establishment of who he is or what he does. There isn't even a real caper until several episodes in. The episode with the fake magic guy is based on one of Monkey Punch's earliest (and worst) manga chapters. Then there's the episode with the "witch", where they don't even explain how that woman is a witch or really anything.

The show only gets on its feet when Goemon comes in.

What Miyazaki later added wasn't more lighteheartedness. It was FOCUS. Episodes actually became about something instead of just random scenes to titillate.

And for the people who think Miyazaki's Lupin was too much of a soft touch, the dude directed an episode wherein Fujiko is not wearing any underwear for most of it and the villain is trying to nuke cities and another where robots tear up the city and people are killed. The villain of Castle of Cagliostro is crushed to death by giant clock hands and Lupin is bloodier than he's ever been in the TV shows when he's brutally gunned down by the Count's assistant, which he barely survives. So while yes, he did lean towards a more philanthropic, heroic Lupin, at least he knew the world Lupin lived in and understood its dangers.


I have, and agree with your sentiments! I did like the episode with Pycal to an extent, but generally skip over the early episodes for my favorite segment of the series (namely, Red Jacket). Miyazaki was able to craft the most popular version of Lupin, and with good reason---he had the right balance of buffoon and gentleman thief. Most of what I wrote was what has been considered the "general consensus" about why the early Lupin didn't work as well as Miyazaki's takeover. However, I'm with you---I like my Lupin silly, though I didn't have a problem with his incarnation in ....Fujiko Mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DangerMouse



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 3984
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:54 pm Reply with quote
Excellent review. Looking forward to my copy arriving.

roseversailles wrote:
Great review. I'm really looking forward to watching the dub of this one, as I just adore Ruff's performance of Fujiko. It's always fun to see the old gang return for new adventures, though some character personalities seemed different than what I was used to (namely bumbling Zenigata). Still not entirely sure what I think about the ending (I'm with the camp that says the idea was better than the execution) but the show is pretty entertaining throughout. Really hoping we get another series in the Lupin franchise, with as much flair and style as this one!


Totally agree, absolutely love her Fujiko, can't wait to watch this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:51 pm Reply with quote
Even Pink Jacket is more "true to Monkey Punch" than Fujiko. Look past the hivemind-hate for that season and you'll see this to be the case.
roseversailles wrote:

So, to sum up, this Lupin is the truest interpretation we've had in a long time, as he is closest to what Monkey Punch originally wrote. I hope my post hasn't been completely dull Smile

It's not dull, but it's certainly very wrong. Especially since you also said this just now:
Quote:
I have, and agree with your sentiments! I did like the episode with Pycal to an extent, but generally skip over the early episodes for my favorite segment of the series (namely, Red Jacket). Miyazaki was able to craft the most popular version of Lupin, and with good reason---he had the right balance of buffoon and gentleman thief. Most of what I wrote was what has been considered the "general consensus" about why the early Lupin didn't work as well as Miyazaki's takeover. However, I'm with you---I like my Lupin silly, though I didn't have a problem with his incarnation in ....Fujiko Mine.

How is Fujiko Lupin remotely similar to manga Lupin? You're even implying that manga Lupin is not extremely wacky. Have you actually read the manga, or are you going by what you read on Wikipedia?
TarsTarkas wrote:

One of the ANNCasts also talked about Fujiko Mine, and basically concurred that Lupin didn't start off as a goofball. It just moved that way once the franchise became a cash cow.

Oh for god's sake

The online misunderstandings of this character are just getting sillier and sillier. When asked "who should play Lupin in a live action adaptation?", Monkey Punch said "Jim Carrey". Apparently that's because he's NOT meant to be a goofy character!?

Okay, screw it, time to actually make my point with scans.











And these are from the very first volume (aside from the last one, which is from v2).

I get the feeling that people mistake "the manga has more violence and sex, and Fujiko also has violence and sex" for "the manga and Fujiko are actually similar in tone and characterization". They don't even consider that the dark aspects in the manga are treated humorously.

Manga Lupin was actually a proper cartoon character - he made all sorts of funny faces and poses and was full of life. He was stylish, but still funny. He didn't just sit around looking 'cool', occasionally switching to 'funny mode' in the same way that a normal anime character switches to 'chibi mode'. It was all part of who he was.

I would go as far as to say that Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt has more in common the Lupin manga with than the Fujiko anime. Comedic, puerile, "everything goes, screw logic, let's just have a good time" tone, extremely fast-paced, vulgar and shameless. Manga Lupin also pretty much treats women the same way that Panty treats men (actually, he was FAR more of a gentleman in Fujiko).
Quote:
Maybe the early episodes didn't do well because they were horrendously awful. Have you seen those early episodes? It's not that they were too dark or violent, they were just ludicrous and poorly written. I mean, the first episode of the series is Lupin in a race car, then foiling the plan of some organization that wants to kill him for no stated reason and blowing up the race track. No establishment of who he is or what he does. There isn't even a real caper until several episodes in. The episode with the fake magic guy is based on one of Monkey Punch's earliest (and worst) manga chapters. Then there's the episode with the "witch", where they don't even explain how that woman is a witch or really anything.

The show only gets on its feet when Goemon comes in.

How were the Pycal episode or chapter bad? How was the prison escape episode bad? And the Goemon introduction episode, along with the one where he finally joins Lupin, were absolutely great.

It seems to me like you're judging Lupin episodes far too much by how much logical sense they make. The prison escape episode didn't make that much sense and frankly wasn't that good in the manga, but the anime took it to a whole new level as far as characterization goes.

The episode about Fujiko's past was also more fun than anything in Fujiiko aside from episodes 1 and 5. It had a darker feeling to it while still not becoming as annoyingly full of itself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8467
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:21 pm Reply with quote
You're being very selective. I've read the manga and it does indeed have a cynical, cruel nature to it. You're using early material, and yet you're forgetting the very first Lupin story wherein women are raped and murdered and another story from the same volume wherein a man has multiple personalities and meets a grizzly end. There's a pervasive sense that the characters are sneering at a very dark, disturbing world. It's not a candy colored mug fest. Those are moments of levity, similar to the ones in this newer show.

You aren't the ONLY person to actually read the manga, you know.

Also, the prison episode bothers me because why would Lupin be on death row for thievery? Wouldn't there be a trial, as well? It just tries to work on the premise of Lupin's ultimate escape plan without establishing any kind of logic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:34 pm Reply with quote
"Lupin reminds us of the joys of not being too stressed. It’s okay to be a little bit mischievous and carefree." - Monkey Punch

"You may say it is unrealistic. But, so what? I’d like you to escape from reality at least while you are watching Lupin’s actions. Even for a little while, if you can get away from such realities as exam hell, debts, traffic nightmares, taxes and other problems, it was well worth it for Lupin to be born." - Monkey Punch, again.

Lupin is intended to be fun and careless above all else and this has come from the mouth of the creator.
penguintruth wrote:
You're being very selective. I've read the manga and it does indeed have a cynical, cruel nature to it. You're using early material, and yet you're forgetting the very first Lupin story wherein women are raped and murdered and another story from the same volume wherein a man has multiple personalities and meets a grizzly end. There's a pervasive sense that the characters are sneering at a very dark, disturbing world. It's not a candy colored mug fest. Those are moments of levity, similar to the ones in this newer show.

You aren't the ONLY person to actually read the manga, you know.

Also, the prison episode bothers me because why would Lupin be on death row for thievery? Wouldn't there be a trial, as well? It just tries to work on the premise of Lupin's ultimate escape plan without establishing any kind of logic.

Has it not occurred you that something can be equal parts humorous and dark? Humor doesn't have to be 'candy-colored'. You can make jokes about awful things but they will still be jokes. In fact, I could argue that perhaps most humor tends to revolve around misfortune of some kind. Humor can be a way to bring levity into some very dark places.

Is the first chapter of the Lupin manga really your idea of a 'serious' work? Practically every page has some kind of funny facial expression, pose or gag in it:








^^^ Fujiko would NEVER have had jokes like this one

It's almost as if some people read the manga as a book, completely disregarding the vastly different tone that funny drawings create. In fact, this should be the most glaring difference between Fujiko and the Lupin manga: the art. The character drawings in Fujiko take themselves a hell of a lot more seriously than Monkey Punch drawings. Monkey Punch manga is something that could be called 'cartoony'. Fujiko... not so much, aside from the aforementioned 'wacky moments' that can be compared to a typical anime's 'chibi moments'.

Look at this scene from the first volume of World's Most Wanted, and note how it is the drawings that ultimately decide the tone of the scene:
http://i.imgur.com/SmB6MuW.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8467
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:15 am Reply with quote
Let me put it this way: which is more like Monkey Punch's manga, this show or the past few decades of stale TV specials?

All that was added was a tad more of a pulp-y feel to it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:21 pm Reply with quote
I stopped watching Fujiko about two-thirds of the way through because I simply could not engage with any of the characters. They all seemed much too much like cardboard cutouts with little depth. Perhaps that is in keeping with the original, which I have never watched, but it left me yearning for more than what Okada provided. Fujiko had the trappings of a mature adult story, but, for me at least, it didn't deliver on its promise.

Even the girls in Okada's AKB0048 have more emotional complexity than Fujiko.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:53 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Let me put it this way: which is more like Monkey Punch's manga, this show or the past few decades of stale TV specials?

All that was added was a tad more of a pulp-y feel to it.

Neither are at all like the manga. Generic kids' cartoon (specials) vs. generic 'adult, serious' animation (Fujiko).

I don't understand how Fujiko's serious, frankly quite feminine art, ongoing 'look-at-how-serious-I-am' story and often-nonexistent humor compare to the manga's extremely fast-paced, episodic stories, humor and loose, sketchy, cartoony, goofy art. At all. They both have violence and sex and that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1068
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:30 pm Reply with quote
Good points and funny examples, uguu! "Fujiko" is good stuff but it's not quite like Monkey Punch's manga... though I'm not quite certain that's a bad thing, since I think I liked "Fujiko" a bit more than you did. I really value how Yamamoto and Okada and the staff owned the show and made it something that is unmistakably a Yamamoto/Okada/Koike/etc anime. Kind of like how "Cagliostro" is unmistakably a Miyazaki anime, and the manga is unmistakably Monkey Punch's. One of the real beauties of the Lupin series for me is how so many artists with really unique, special styles have been able to use its characters as a way to express their own awesome visions rather than everyone sticking to one homogenous take. I just think that's so cool and fun!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LagannImpact



Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Posts: 574
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:30 am Reply with quote
Wow, Myaow, I think you just won the thread!

It's a shame the [as] powers that be are pretty dead-set against nudity and this most likely won't be ending up on Toonami, even at 2:30 AM in November (pretty much the only timeslot they have left this year). However, then again it hasn't been announced for Neon Alley, where it would really fit along the likes of Berserk movies and Fate/Zero...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group