Forum - View topicNEWS: Aniplex USA Adds Sword Art Online: Extra Edition, Silver Spoon 2 on Home Video
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SouthPacific
Posts: 689 |
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Funimation sells discs cheaply, and after they've recouped the rather small licensing fee they'll pay royalties. Now, remember that these are royalties on discs that are sold very cheaply, so again, it's a rather small amount of money. Aniplex USA is a different cookie. Don't forget that Aniplex USA is a subsidary of Aniplex JP. The money they make will stay within the publicly traded company and benefit their operations as a whole. If Aniplex were to start a European branch and that did well, that would be beneficial for the main branch, the Japanese one that is, since the branches are subsidaries of a larger company. I don't think i can simplify it anymore more than this. Actually, I can. The main difference between traditional licensing companies and Aniplex USA is that traditional licensing companies can be seen like middlemen, and middlemen that takes sizable cuts of potential profit, while Aniplex USA is a part of the main branch that funds and produces anime, and as such a genuine part of "the industry". Both companies will bring back money to Japan and its animation industry, but the one without the middleman will obviously bring back a larger chunk of money. E: I'd also like to voice my frustation in that I cannot provide any numbers for this, but i'm only following what i've read/heard and what I think is logical in the terms of business. Oh how I wish that we could see all the numbers. It would put an end to speculation and relying on the little information we recieve from industry insiders 
Last edited by SouthPacific on Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ultimatemegax
 Posts: 412 |
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Keep in mind that A-1 pictures is indeed separate from Aniplex of Japan and acts separate at times. UtaPri and From the New World are two titles they worked up separately from Aniplex (one via King Records/Broccoli and the other from TV Asahi). On those shows, they are members of the production committee funding the show, but on the others from Aniplex, they are just a hired hand. I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but clarifying in case you had a misconception they were one and the same. As for the latter, licenses are bought for as cheap as $1,000 per episode now (likely Sentai's prices) just as Justin has reiterated in his columns. I'm pretty confident that AoA sends more back to the committee than that amount. If one wants to see it as "supporting the anime industry more" they can argue that point. We don't know the exact amount the companies pay in advance and through royalties; however the concept that paying a middleman a cheaper amount for one project to pay a rightsholder gives more money for a series than paying directly to a company on the committee for that same project itself feels illogical. On the reverse side, I do think Funimation and Viz, through their connections at Toonami, did a decent job at spreading their series better than AoA has. In that sense, I agree that Funi/Viz has better marketed their licenses to boost the NA market previously. On that same line of thinking, online streaming has overtaken media sales and video sales in this market. Aniplex has done a suitable job making sure their titles appear on as many platforms as possible for that franchise (some may not fit on Toonami, but others may work on Netflix). The gap between the two has shrunk IMO. (Sentai's limited themselves to online marketing and at conventions so AoA has done slightly better than them.) |
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SquadmemberRitsu
 Posts: 1391 |
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They have connections with Aniplex in Japan which they use to get their hands on popular titles which likely cost a lot of money. They then sell these with a model that can keep their little branch afloat while still being able to afford the big titles, organise events (Like Movie screenings and convention stuff) and give back to the guys up in Japan. This is probably the best model to give back to the original creators without importing the stuff directly from Japan. Whether or not the titles 'deserve' getting money back is irrelevant. If you want to blame anyone blame Japan in general for their ass backwards prices for this stuff. The same Breaking Bad sets I paid about $20-40 each for are finally being released Japan. The price tag? $120 each season. That's a little bit less than I paid for the entire show. On the plus side there are absolutely heaps of on disc extras... all of which and more are on the Blu-rays released in English speaking countries. The only thing it has over what I've got is a cool box and Japanese subtitles. Now THAT is something worth complaining about. Certainly a lot more so than the horrible truth that people in the US are forced to pay $40 less for games than us (Seriously, why do you guys complain about the prices of games so much?) or the horrible deeds that Aniplex have committed by giving you cool stuff that you wouldn't be able to get otherwise and a good quality English Dub and/or subtitles at a cheaper price than the Japanese release. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23883 |
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@ SP - you seem to be conveniently forgetting what you originally wrote, so let me refresh your memory:
No. Buying from AoA supports Aniplex more than buying an Aniplex title put out by somebody else, but it does not support THE INDUSTRY more. The fact is that if companies like Funi and Sentai didn't exist, there would be fewer titles made. Overseas licensing and royalties are factored in when production committees decide to go ahead with a title. Aniplex titles, on the other hand, would be made regardless because they do not need overseas revenue. Their overseas revenue is pure gravy, not make-or-break profits. As I mentioned before, Aniplex is very well-situated to exploit its titles through AoA but plenty of other production studios don't have those advantages (i.e. being owned by a multi-billion dollar corporation). @ ultimatemegax: A-1 is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Aniplex. It is not even remotely close to being an arms length entity. The fact that it might occasionally participate in non-Aniplex titles from time to time does not change this fact. @ SquadmemberRitsu: Of course AoA doesn't make any money from Aniplex's Japanese sales. Duh. They are a wholly owned subsidiary created to maximize profits in the NA market. There is nothing sinister in this. But I resent the fact they get to cherry pick titles and charge us considerably more than other companies would because they have decided a high price/low volume sales strategy is best for them. What is best for them as a company is not necessarily best for me as a consumer. The best companies make retail a win/win for themselves and their customer base. Like Funi and Sentai does. They manage to keep their lights on AND provide anime at NA market prices. What a concept. |
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Leland Lee
Posts: 208 |
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There's no point debating this stuff anymore, Blood. :/ I learned my lesson in the last Aniplex thread.
People will keep on harping, and loyalists will keep on blindly buying and looking down on anyone else. It's just...what amazes me this time in particular, is these things continuing onwards for stuff that is truly shit. Honestly, what if....by some alternate universe bizarro happenstances, Aniplex "license rescues" some ancient crap like...like Violence Jack? Will you all be up and arms about that too? The pricing, and the rest of the song and dance? |
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SouthPacific
Posts: 689 |
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So going by your train of thought Aniplex is not part of the industry? Oh well, they're just the company that has produced about a third of all 10k+ sellers in Japan since 2000. But yeah, since they're not part of the industry of anime that doesn't matter. Only companies other than Aniplex are part of the industry right? Jesus.
No, less titles would not be made. Production committees enforce tropes that cater to Japanese audiences, not audiences overseas. Why? Because the money they recieve from overseas licenses is still very small compared to their domestic market, and doesn't impact them in the way you like to believe. They're not gonna turn down the extra cash they make from overseas companies, but overseas companies won't impact the decisions of production committees and their respective investors either. I'm pretty sure the guy leading the Under the Dog project mentioned this several times throughout the updates they made, and perhaps even in one of their livestreams.
From what I know all subsidaries of Aniplex have their own internal economics to take care of, and if they don't do well they won't get bailed out by someone above them. So even if Sony is the top dog that doesn't mean that AoA can in any way rely on Sony helping them out in dire times. You are terribly misinformed on many matters, and if you want to have a serious discussion about this i'd recommend that you do your homework first. Not that I am the first in this thread to tell you this. E: And I cannot stress this enough but this has nothing to do with my opinion about Aniplex, it's a matter of things are. You on the other hand seem to be too emotionally engaged to hold a proper conversation about this. Let go of your dislike for me and your possible dislike of Aniplex and this'll be a more sound discussion. |
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Angel M Cazares
 Posts: 5450 Location: Iscandar |
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And this why at the end of the day it is a fruitless exercise trying to reason with you. I cannot take seriously the opinions and speculations (I will give you credit for providing some facts) of someone who resorts to condescending statements once he/she runs out of petty arguments.
Says the person who loves Aniplex to death and seems to be against the existence of companies like Funimation and Sentai. |
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ultimatemegax
Posts: 412 |
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My point is that you cannot lump them together when talking about making back money as you did in your previous post. Aniplex of Japan are the ones selling the discs while A-1 is a hired hand and does not contribute on the committee when Aniplex is on it. Aniplex of Japan determines which titles they ask A-1 to handle animation production and which ones they ask other studios to handle animation production. The only time they contribute money to the production is when they work on non-Aniplex titles. I also recommend you read the remainder of my post regarding how much goes back from the US licensor and how that's not at all likely to support production of shows in Japan (outside rare instances like Space Dandy where Adult Swim paid Bandai Visual a lot of money to air it). |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23883 |
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@ SP - why did I know you would not understand my point? Yes, of course Aniplex is part of the Japanese anime industry. As I've said before: duh. However, it is also incontestable that even if Aniplex titles got ZERO dollars overseas, those titles would continue to get made because Aniplex rather wisely tends to only produce shows that sell well in Japan, negating the need for overseas revenue streams. Also, since Aniplex is backed by Sony, getting financing isn't exactly an issue.
A lot of other production companies are not in this enviable boat. And you clearly do not understand the value of overseas money to a lot of Japanese anime production (which doesn't have a multi-billion dollar company backing it up). A lot of titles get financed by guesstimating how much money will come in from foreign markets. Sometimes even actual presales are made which gives you part of your production budget. But even if that's not where you are getting your budget from, you decide whether or not to gamble based on your EXPECTATION of what the title might be worth from other countries - ESPECIALLY in those cases where you are worried about your domestic sales. If all overseas revenue dried up that DEFINITELY would have an impact on the number of Japanese productions. Yes, it is true that foreign sensibilities are ignored when deciding on anime content, but overseas money definitely isn't.
Yeah, you need to take your won advice and do your own homework. It is true that a wholly owned subsidiary needs to justify its existence or it will eventually get shut down. But to take Sony's own TV manufacturing division: it loses billions of dollars a year and has been for a while. Yet Sony continues to make TVs. That should tell you there is more to corporate economics than meets the eye. AoA can operate the way it does BECAUSE it is a wholly owned subsidiary of Aniplex. Aniplex can operate the does because it is a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony. If you do not understand the advantages this conveys ... if you really think, "la de dah, AoA is totally independent and its pricing model works because they people running it are unmitigated geniuses and no other reaosn!" then I can't help you. |
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SouthPacific
Posts: 689 |
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It's funny, for simply having opinion you do not I suddenly become someone who loves that something to death, which I don't. I have bought no more than one title from Aniplex USA. I've bought more than one title from Funimation. Again, that is your interpretation, and definitely not a completely wrong one either. I do genuinely think that there's a vocal minority that bashes on Aniplex for all the wrong reasons, and I will go against that. Does that really make me some kind of fanboy? And I don't think Funimation and Sentai releases exactly radiate passion, with all the glitches and errors they come with. Hence my dislike for them. And why can't you take my opinions and speculations seriously? I'm very curious about that, since much of what i'm saying isn't exactly news. Oh, and maybe I should go through my replies here, because I can't remember making any condescending statements. @Blood, i'm aware that being a subsidary of a succesful company has its advantages, that I won't deny as it is a fact. But if that subsidary doesn't live up to the expectations of its parents it won't be around for long. Aniplex has been around for a while now and has been growing quite a bit the past two years. And that's not because its parent is fueling it with money. It's due to the adapted business model and the titles they've got access to. They've done a pretty good job marketing their shows as well. And I find it hilarious that you almost even blame Aniplex for producing shows that will only do well with Japanese audiences when they've produced and distributed shows like Sword Art Online, Kill La Kill, Fate/Zero and other titles that have become huge in the west. And those are just the recent ones... As for the rest of what you've wrote seems extremely unlikely and something I haven't heard before. If you want me and others to believe that Japanese production committees put so much faith into overseas markets you'll have to bring some evidence to the table because that's an extremely bold and unlikely statement. The Japanese producer from the Under the Dog project said that Japanese production committees don't cater to overseas audiences because it's not a worthwhile effort. That alone speak volumes of how much they care about overseas sales. Like I said before, they won't turn down money collected from overseas licensing companies, but that money is obviously not very impressive considering they don't consider catering to overseas audiences. So in short, any kind of money is better than no money at all. But that doesn't mean that that kind of money is particularly impressive in the scope of things. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23883 |
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Here's are some quotes from Justin Sevakis from his article, The Anime Economy - Part 1: Let's Make An Anime!
Justin rightly points out that international money is not as important to the anime industry today as it was during the bubble days. But, in certain situations, where sales in Japan have been bad, foreign money can still make a difference. So my theory is that shows that are on the cusp - i.e. ones where it is not clear they will be a sales champ in Japan - factoring in what might come in from overseas can influence a decision to go ahead or not. I base this on my own experience working in film and TV production. We stitch together our financing from a variety of presales. But our projects only go ahead if we have some indication of international interest. I doubt it is wildly different in Japan for "cusp" shows. |
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SouthPacific
Posts: 689 |
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I'm an avid reader of Justin Sevakis and his articles, and i've read that article and the other parts of it. I also understand what you're conveying and the theory you mention. But there's one thing that has to be mentioned and that is that many shows that do bad in Japan do bad in the US as well. This is not the case for exactly all titles produced, but the vast majority of sales follow this pattern. It's been like that for a long time, and certainly production committees have been aware of this for almost as long. That would mean that they wouldn't expect international sales to determine the success of a show that's already doing bad in Japan. And what that quote doesn't mention is all of the merchandise that the shows sell as well. Figure creators, for example, have to pay licensing fees in order to release character figures from shows. In many cases you have multiple figure companies creating their own figures of characters from the same show. That leads to multiple licensing fees. And with the plethora of other official merchandise found in Japan it's gotta amount to something pretty big, even if the licensing fees are smaller than the licensing of home video rights and streaming rights. Other than that you've got potential source materials that can get boosts in sales. So with all of these things that contribute to the success of an anime, I have hard time imagining production committees giving special care to the overseas licenses. The overseas licenses are just one of the many contributing factors. It's true that if one factor fails, another one can make up for it, and I believe that this can be where overseas licenses shows their worth, but overseas licenses making or breaking a show just appears unrealistic when you break down all the money streams. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23883 |
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@ SP - I don't disagree with anything in your last post. Which brings us to what started this line of convo. in the first place: your contention that buying from AoA supports the industry more than buying from distribs like Funi & Sentai.
Whether you intended it or not, it made it sound like buying an AoA product is more beneficial to the industry as a whole than buying from Funi or Sentai. Really, the only thing you are doing when you buy an AoA product is making Henry Goto look good. Your impact on what Aniplex makes is non-existent and your contribution to its bottom line is negligible (since it has likely already made a stack of money purely from its Japanese customer base). Whereas, DEPENDING ON THE TITLE YOU BUY from Funi or Sentai you MIGHT be shifting a title from mildly unprofitable to a tiny bit profitable. You MIGHT be contributing to influencing whether a future title gets made or not. But bottom line: what we consumers do in NA, regardless of whom we buy from, doesn't really have a huge impact on the anime industry as a whole. |
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SouthPacific
Posts: 689 |
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The only thing I can't agree with your reply is that buying a title from one of the middlemen has a larger chance to influence than buying from the subsidary of the actual creator. And that's due to me having a hard time believing that Aniplex JP would let Goto keep much of the profit. And it also makes sense that by cutting out the middleman you're making the stream of money more direct. Having that said, this shouldn't just apply to Aniplex, but to any distributor in Japan. You lose one of the transfer pipes which should allow for a more direct flow of money. I think ultimatemegax also pointed this out.
And this exactly what I mean. We don't make a huge impact no matter which US company we give our money, but I dare say that it's logical that if you give the money to the subsidary rather than the middleman you will support that company and their productions more than you would through a traditional licensing company. That was my original point. However it is as you say, it's still a negligible amount of money. It's just a little bit less negligible. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23883 |
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I agree with your last point. I would never argue that skipping a middleman isn't more beneficial to yjr SPECIFIC company involved than not skipping a middleman. But as I've mentioned before, many Japanese production companies aren't in the same boat as Aniplex so even if they wanted to go middlemanless, it's not really an option for them.
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